On Landscape - Any Questions Private

Paul Kenny (00:00.406)
Yeah, but I'm 74.

Tim Parkin (00:03.201)
That's the start of the talk. We've just finished the conversation and we're going to do the outro now.

Mark Littlejohn (00:06.233)
Is that not a Beatles track? When um... Give us a... Give us a... Give us a tick... I'm just gonna pause the washing machine. Because it's starting to spin cycle.

Tim Parkin (00:18.178)
What a ramshackle start. We love it.

Paul Kenny (00:20.59)
This doesn't happen on...

Mark Littlejohn (00:25.9)
There we go.

Paul Kenny (00:26.926)
The rest is politics.

Tim Parkin (00:27.182)
The BBC, Andrew McNeill wouldn't have that, he?

Paul Kenny (00:31.49)
I'm just gonna stop the washing machine

Mark Littlejohn (00:33.483)
What is it? Just use the dry cleaners?

Tim Parkin (00:35.854)
I think he'd probably just use a shotgun on it, judging by him.

Mark Littlejohn (00:38.721)
Rook.

Tim Parkin (00:41.42)
All right, hello and welcome to On Landscape. I'm here with an Any Questions session with Mark Littlejohn and our special guest for the hour, Paul Kenny. Welcome, Paul and Mark. I'm gonna pass over to Mark. Mark knows Paul very well. Do want to do an intro on who Mark is, Paul is? You know who Mark is. Don't do Mark, do Paul.

Mark Littlejohn (00:55.841)
Good afternoon.

Mark Littlejohn (01:08.813)
Who Paul is? Paul's just a thoroughly nice man who I first met back in 2015 at the Masters of Vision exhibition at Southam Minster. I mean, I was a complete novice as regards photography. was just like invited along, I think, because I'd won a competition. And Rach, obviously my wife comes with me most places I go with these sorts of things. And I didn't know

Paul Kenny (01:17.026)
Is it that long?

Mark Littlejohn (01:38.734)
Paul. And I was wandering around, there was Valda Bailey, was Julian Calvary, was two other people. Lovely pictures, I Valda's an artist, she's a wonderful soul. But we stopped at Paul Kenny's in Sketch of a Downwork, I think it was. And we were absolutely mesmerised.

I have that picture hanging in my living room and ten years on I stop and I look at it and I think that is just such a thing of beauty. And really for me Paul just creates works that you can lose yourself in. could, if I had a house with a hundred rooms I could put a Paul Kenny in each one and be entirely happy.

Paul Kenny (02:32.374)
Well, I'd be really happy as well.

Tim Parkin (02:34.199)
Salute.

Mark Littlejohn (02:35.979)
Yeah, but we'd just come to an arrangement if I was buying in bulk. But I mean, you this is the thing. You look at Paul in his revered, mean, on Facebook today, there's somebody seen a copy of Seaworks, which is one of my treasured possessions, which is a book by Paul. And I think it was Andrew Atkinson and Paul Cronin were saying, go.

Seaworks, Amazon, second hand, £150. And they were like, whoa. And that's the cheapest I've seen it by a factor of about three. And it's...

Paul Kenny (03:10.318)
Well, about about about two weeks ago I saw one on Facebook.

eBay for 29.99 and I posted it on Instagram and somebody had bought it within half an hour.

Mark Littlejohn (03:20.844)
Okay.

Tim Parkin (03:23.849)
did you buy it?

Mark Littlejohn (03:30.431)
It's not a surprise. mean, it's just such a fabulous book.

I mean, sometimes, I mean, it's a late comer to photography, to maybe an artistic world. You almost think of artists being a different breed somehow, but they're just absolutely bog-standard normal people. mean, whenever I've spoken to Paul, I've just had such a lovely time talking to him. We discuss all sorts, discuss music, discuss cake. But the thing that gets me is just this. I went to a talk, I think, with On Landscape once, and there was a gent talking who...

basically took photographs that I couldn't really connect with unless he was in the room. But he'd almost target a niche in the market and almost like a, not a mercenary or mechanical sort of way of venturing the art world. Whereas for me with Paul, it's almost like an inbuilt love of beauty and he creates beauty out of nothing. You true creative, nothing exists before Paul gets there. These works of art are created

by him. And they're just amazing to me.

Tim Parkin (04:43.35)
I like the fact that processes are really organic. mean, we had you talking at our conference a while back, and there's a brilliant video. And I loved the way it worked. was organic how it worked itself out without a goal. It was case of almost intellectual Brownian motion.

Paul Kenny (05:01.784)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (05:06.701)
That talk at Reg Ed has been amazing for me. has, to this day, about two months ago I sold six works to a guy in Arizona and all because he'd watched that video.

Tim Parkin (05:25.218)
Wow, brilliant.

Mark Littlejohn (05:26.417)
I have to say, I was desperate for you to be there. Desperate for you to be there.

Paul Kenny (05:31.918)
Yeah, it's been great for me and I still, it's a great thing to send if somebody's really serious about wanting to work with you or gallery or something like that, said, well, if you really want to know, because it was about the best talk I've ever done. was like, got everything in and it was perfectly an hour, exactly an hour. I think there was 102 slides in it.

Tim Parkin (05:33.132)
We have.

Tim Parkin (05:51.436)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (05:52.599)
That was great.

Paul Kenny (05:59.798)
and it just was the best shot I can do at talking about myself really. So I do now send links a lot of times. if you really want to know about the work, watch this.

Mark Littlejohn (06:13.366)
Yeah, no.

Tim Parkin (06:13.378)
And it was an evocative story about how life is an art. That's the way it felt. It's the way that you got across what being an artist is in terms of discovery.

Paul Kenny (06:26.828)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (06:27.904)
I thought it was superb going through the older pictures and the life story and I thought it resonated with everybody because it was a truly personal journey.

Paul Kenny (06:38.797)
I was talking to somebody recently about, I've had a few things recently about people saying, you're not really a photographer, are you? And I kind of get really tense and think, oh, here we go. You know, I'm going to have to explain myself again. But I first processed a film at art college in 1970. So that was my first ever. I went into a dark room, got a roll of film, I processed it.

Tim Parkin (06:48.238)
Hmm.

Paul Kenny (07:08.737)
hung it up to dry and that was my first ever photography and I carried on doing wet process darkroom photography until 2007 so I had a long time working cameras, with film, with darkroom chemicals and stuff and to me it's just a complete slow movement into where I am now but I still

Mark Littlejohn (07:22.508)
Mmm.

Paul Kenny (07:37.089)
the basis of all this photography I don't all my methods of photography all my technologies I use are photographic technologies

Tim Parkin (07:47.982)
It's interesting how some people are worried about the term photographer though, isn't it? When you think about something like maybe Goldsworthy, who avoids the photography like the plague.

Paul Kenny (07:53.131)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Kenny (07:58.72)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's really good at it. I was really lucky. I spent the day with Andy Goldsworthy. He invited me to his studio in Penpont in Dumfries for a day. I drove there really early in the morning. I got there about 10 o'clock and he wasn't there and he had an assistant and his assistant said, I've got to put you in the Land Rover and take you across the field. So we drove across this field and there was Andy Goldsworthy making this

Mark Littlejohn (08:00.32)
I was, I was...

Mark Littlejohn (08:04.181)
But I remember-

Paul Kenny (08:27.309)
piece of sculpture on a tree we using cow shit. He pulled out a 16x9 camera, Fuji, was it Fuji? can't remember. And he took a roll of really, there was no lens cap on.

Mark Littlejohn (08:32.3)
you

Tim Parkin (08:49.1)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (08:55.085)
thing so it had been in a rucksack with no lens cap on so you know dust might have gone on lens and he took a few photographs and that was it I said is that how you do it he said yeah no tripod nothing I said maybe we should work together and I think I could take better pictures of your work than you can you know but he wasn't interested in that

Tim Parkin (09:15.992)
Ha

Tim Parkin (09:19.34)
If it was that conscious choice by him do you think to not be a photographer or is it just the way he was?

Paul Kenny (09:24.843)
Yeah, it was just about recording. wanted to make sure what he was doing was recording the thing he'd made.

That was all he was interested in getting a record. I think he could have done more with that to me personally. It was a great day though and he bought two pictures out of my portfolio.

Tim Parkin (09:47.726)
That's nice. You see many links?

Mark Littlejohn (09:50.189)
It's a funny sort of thing, when you talk about photography and, I was trying to write something the other day but my brain is slightly frazzled at the moment, but it's like talking to a pal, Barak Rowe pub the other day, sorry, Paul, and the guy was going fishing but he wasn't expecting to catch anything, but he says, if I was expecting to catch something, we'd call it catching, wouldn't call it fishing. And I was trying to draw analogies with the photography as well because it's, know.

Paul Kenny (10:16.29)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (10:20.52)
it doesn't imply that you've always got to take a photograph. It's a different process. It's hard to explain in my head at the moment, but there various things going on. I don't see how, you know, the differences about, as Paul's saying, know, somebody saying that you're not actually taking a picture. I remember listening to you at the Masters of Vision and Steve Watkins had asked us all to do...

a spiel on influences or people that Strucky and Bill Brant remember for years, I think it was a photograph of a couple of eggs in a nest.

Paul Kenny (10:54.539)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Kenny (10:58.177)
Yeah, yeah, it's called Gold's Nest.

Mark Littlejohn (11:01.057)
So that shows the provenance of what you are and how you came into being, I suppose.

Paul Kenny (11:08.513)
yeah it was a great photograph and I still look at it today and think my god that is because there's about four things going on in it and that's what I loved about it there's a nest with egg scene and there's a bit of a feather sticking out of the nest as well and that's in the foreground then there's some kind of like and covered rocks just behind it and then in the distance is a kind of flat lock sort of flat water and then beyond that there's a little island or something so

I just looked at his picture and I thought, wow, the perspective on it was like you get in Chinese painting, where they try and get the foreground right at your feet at the bottom and then it goes up to kind of misty hill in the distance. And in this one photograph, there's all these kind of layers of interest. thought, it's the first thing I'd seen where I thought, wow, there's not just one thing going. It's not just a photograph of a...

a gulls nest, it's a photograph of a gulls nest and it's saying there's something ancient rock with that lichen that must have hundreds of years to grow and then there's this loch and then there's this island that was probably created by the ice age and I sort of got out of this one picture many many different things I still like it yeah

Mark Littlejohn (12:32.287)
So what prompted you to move from taking photographs, if you like, the traditional way to then using the scanner? Was that thinking about doing something different? Was it just an idea that came into your head?

Paul Kenny (12:44.276)
No, no, it was a very definite, very definite move. I've been thinking awful lot recently about the power of the negative. How that I spent 30 years making negatives. And when I started off, there were 35 millimeter negatives and then there were absolutely tiny things, you know, and you could, you could get a photograph out of it, out of a really small negative. And then I went on to two and a quarter square. Then I went on to five by four.

But I spent hours and hours and hours and hours looking at these things through a loop. All I could see was kind of grain structure and you could tell from looking through a loop at a negative whether it was going to print sharp, it was going to print fuzzy, whether there was anything detail in the shadows or not. But it became very abstract looking through this little little eyeglass at these kind of negatives.

And then I started to kind of think like, what if I tried to make a negative?

out of the stuff of the landscape. just came to once on a beach at Applecross. I had a piece of seaweed in my hand which you could see through like a piece of kelp. there was a, you know when you were at the beach, if you stay at a beach all day when it's really hot in the northwest highlands, little puddles of seawater dry with a white ring around them of salt crystals.

Mark Littlejohn (14:18.069)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (14:20.892)
I had these two things and I thought maybe I can make something out of this so I took some things back home with me and I tried to make these kind of

negatives out using the landscape itself and then I put these in an enlarger shone light through them onto photographic paper and made made prints and it was the kind of cutting out the camera making a negative and then capturing it on paper but then I did a residency

an art science residency at Lancaster University for a year in the environmental science department and one of the professors there said to me one day said you'd get a better result if you scanned that rather than put it in an enlarger and I said no no no no no no digital for devil's work no no no no no no no because I was making these 20 by 24 inch prints that was all I could do

Tim Parkin (15:13.442)
Mm, okay.

Mark Littlejohn (15:19.71)
You

Paul Kenny (15:29.622)
from these negatives in inverts I still call them negatives I still call the plates I make negatives it's just what

Tim Parkin (15:35.96)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (15:38.829)
But then we played around with it a bit, he showed me how to do it and suddenly I was scanning things at 2400 dots per inch and then going into the file and doing one to one pixels and thinking what look at this and then you could print them enormous so it was just a move to to capturing the plate that I make

the negative that I make, the scale became the best way to do it.

Mark Littlejohn (16:12.395)
So it's just eternal curiosity, I suppose.

Paul Kenny (16:15.34)
Yeah, evolution. It just seemed to be incredibly natural to just flow onto that from it.

Tim Parkin (16:24.642)
How many the larger pictures did he make? Did that work very often at all?

Paul Kenny (16:30.54)
Oh yeah, well they were great and they were very fragile with dried sea water on. I started off doing it on 5 by 4 inch, I used to get a 5 by 4 inch negative that was no use and I would get rid of the emulsion off it so I ended up with a clear piece of acetate and I would do these things on these 5 by 4 inch pieces of acetate.

Tim Parkin (16:38.414)
That was the lamp pump in the logic.

Paul Kenny (17:00.908)
but slowly I went to glass 5x4 inch pieces of glass my frame maker at the time used to save bits of old glass for me and he cut them up into 5x4 inch pieces and when I went to see him there was always a little stack of 5x4 inch glass for me to play around with but they were very very fragile

the way I describe it, this is absolute truth, they were like you know when you see a plum that's got a bloom on it like the white cut and you can touch it, it's very very fragile they were like that, they were kind of beautiful for a few minutes and you could put them in an enlarger and you could make some prints on them, the heat of the enlarger, all sorts of things

dried these negatives out so much that they started to really flat. When you first put them in you could get kind of a nice picture out of it but after about an hour they were finished really. So they were very very limited in edition.

Tim Parkin (18:13.133)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (18:15.561)
Yeah, they, there aren't many left. mean, I've got some in boxes behind me, they were very, very kind of difficult to, to manage. I mean, the 24 pictures I've got in the Scottish National Collection are all from that first wave of these stuff, done in larger, not in the scanners.

Tim Parkin (18:39.758)
Okay.

Mark Littlejohn (18:46.334)
How long did it take you to create, when you started using the scanner, how long to create your scene as it were?

Paul Kenny (18:53.951)
The scene.

Mark Littlejohn (18:58.292)
the image that you then scanned.

Paul Kenny (19:01.567)
Well, it's getting the plate is the.

I just pulled one off. Here's what I'm working on at the moment.

Tim Parkin (19:10.764)
No, babe. Yeah.

Paul Kenny (19:14.705)
So it's not salt, it's lawn fertilizer.

Tim Parkin (19:14.774)
Is that salt?

Tim Parkin (19:20.91)
Yeah, cool.

Mark Littlejohn (19:22.149)
Mmm!

Paul Kenny (19:23.563)
So what I'll do when this is dried properly, I will then take another bit of this tape away and then put some some other kind of chemical in here or whatever or Seawater that I've collected or something I've collected somewhere and then and then build up this image and when this is Perfect already, I've decided it's right. I will then scan it

Tim Parkin (19:36.524)
Like your own masking, yeah.

Tim Parkin (19:51.288)
I'm interested in how you...

Because he obviously experimenting quite a lot with both the type of photography you're doing and the subject matter, etc. How often, what's the ratio of failure to success? it? Yeah.

Paul Kenny (19:57.94)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (20:09.654)
huge, huge, huge ratio. mean, when I was really going at it, I mean, I'm 74 now and I've kind of eased off a bit and I'm not so manically trying to earn money and make a living. I mean, I did a day job for 20 years and then I just left one day and walked out. And so I had to make money and it became really hard. And when I was

so I was working at it all day and night trying to... In those years I reckon if I got 25 pictures a year that's a really good year.

Mark Littlejohn (20:48.65)
No.

Tim Parkin (20:53.134)
and you're probably making a couple, two or three a day or something like that.

Paul Kenny (20:56.139)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've got the moment I can tell you I've got 12345678 on the go at the moment on my bench. So out of those, there may be one might turn out to be a perfect picture that I'll let through the net. There's millions and nearly there.

Tim Parkin (21:18.274)
What does that success mean? How do you work out whether it's successful or not? is it what you're looking for in it? Just something, a reaction.

Paul Kenny (21:23.539)
I it. If I love it, I just look at it think that's cracking and I put some really good dance music on and I might dance around the studio a bit. I have certain records that I put on for when something's gone really well and I think Jesus, that is just so right, you know. All the time, yeah, all the time.

Mark Littlejohn (21:47.134)
Do you have music playing while you're working?

Paul Kenny (21:52.811)
I have a studio playlist that I've built up over the years. I think it's something like 27 hours now.

Tim Parkin (22:00.654)
We need to know somebody else. What's your most creative music then?

Paul Kenny (22:07.372)
giving away my secrets here I have certain tracks I can put on if I'm blocked, I'm stuck if I'm feeling I just don't know where I'm going, don't know what I'm doing I've got certain tracks I can put on there's one particular I can put on and I just close my eyes and I can

become creative because of the music and it's a track by a Russian composer called Gretchaninov who was a pupil of Rachmaninov and there's an album I bought called Music for Passion Week

Tim Parkin (22:39.818)
okay.

Tim Parkin (22:50.808)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (22:52.171)
and it's a Russian choir but it's just so so powerful it makes me creative and then I've got other things I put on Philip Glass I like a lot of Philip Glass stuff I'm bigging at the moment to Northern Soul so

Tim Parkin (23:13.079)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (23:14.186)
I still can't get away with Northern Soul, I have to say. I I love listening to music when I'm going out and it's still dark, still, know, the sun's not come up. It's the likes of Natalie Merchant and perhaps Leonard Cohen. I tend to go for more morose, miserable, even music when I'm going out, where that's just to slow my slightly impetuous brain down, I don't know. I mean, you've got a really eclectic mix of music, you know.

Paul Kenny (23:21.672)
Paul Kenny (23:30.762)
Yes.

Paul Kenny (23:36.874)
Hehe.

Paul Kenny (23:42.981)
Yeah, I listen to all sorts and I really kind of work at it. I kind of listen to new things all the time. try and find places I go. I make a playlist every month and just... Yeah, how do I find it? Some people send it to me. There's certain places on the internet I go to look at. Certain radio programs I like. I mean, that comes and goes. I used to be...

Mark Littlejohn (23:55.806)
Yeah. How do you find new music? What's your system for?

Paul Kenny (24:12.682)
you know say Giles Peterson was on the radio and I used listen to him a lot and he was things like the Cinematic Orchestra and the f*** you know but he's gone on a slightly different direction now I'm not really enjoying what he's doing but I might find somebody like that there used to be a program on radio 3 called Late Junction I listened to that because something would come out of the blue you'd think where? you know like

Mark Littlejohn (24:21.417)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (24:34.2)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (24:45.25)
Bulgarian folk singing, you suddenly hear this thing, it's like you've never heard anything like it. It's sort of stuck.

Tim Parkin (24:51.406)
We get funny linkups in Scotland here in the Highlands because a lot of Galic singers and musicians go to Eastern Europe trying things out and coming back and building this melange of Galic and string music.

Mark Littlejohn (24:59.635)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (24:59.86)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (25:06.698)
Yeah, I've just been listening recently to an album by somebody called Martin Bennett, who was Scottish and he, I've just discovered he died at 33. But there's this one album that he made, it's just sensational. It's really beautiful, but it's like Scottish, but it's got an edge to it and a droniness to it, but also

Mark Littlejohn (25:20.382)
Yuck.

Paul Kenny (25:36.786)
slight dance thing to it and there's an Irish folk singer who sings with a band called Lankrom.

she sings on it with very harsh kind of Irish voice. It's a beautiful album.

Tim Parkin (25:50.574)
gonna have to get a playlist off you for it.

Mark Littlejohn (25:51.079)
It's it. Yeah, I was I was listening to some Portuguese Fado earlier on.

Paul Kenny (25:53.16)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Kenny (25:57.627)
yeah, talking about being miserable.

Mark Littlejohn (26:00.042)
Well, Maritza Tera is a favourite album. It's just, but the production in that one is great. Madrid deus as well, another fantastic. It's lovely. But emotion's a huge part of it. wasn't even, you I mean, you create and stuff because it's intrinsically yours, but because you've created, I'm sure when you look at it and you just get that sigh and that bit of love and think.

Paul Kenny (26:09.611)
That's very emotional music, isn't it?

Paul Kenny (26:21.342)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (26:28.52)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (26:28.617)
But you know, it feeds in. It's not a mechanical process, is it? It's a process born out of love and it's the same with your music. You listen to music because you love it. But you obviously don't stick with one simple thing. I I add a load of stuff in through. Don't listen to a lot of radio. I mean, I listen to radio Westeros. But that gets the fair bit. But I shazam a lot of stuff and just add it to a playlist. You know, good movies and, you know.

Paul Kenny (26:37.876)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (26:48.681)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (26:53.438)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Kenny (26:58.974)
Yeah, that's a monthly playlist I make. I hear something, if it just slightly takes my ear out, I'll put it on the playlist. And then if I hear something, this week I've heard Roxy Music, Virginia playing, I thought, god, this is a cracking.

Tim Parkin (27:17.582)
amazing band.

Mark Littlejohn (27:18.131)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (27:20.07)
and so that's gone on this month's and then at the end of the month I'll listen to it all and I'll scrap some and scrap some I've posted out now there's about 30 people now on my mailing list to get them a monthly playlist

Tim Parkin (27:33.484)
mostly the included. Do I, interesting question for you though, do either of you listen to music when you're out in the field in the landscape?

Mark Littlejohn (27:34.322)
Yeah?

Paul Kenny (27:41.034)
No.

Mark Littlejohn (27:43.434)
I've actually done a little bit because obviously I'm not quite at Paul's advanced years, but I am advanced enough that I'm using hearing aids and a Bluetooth didn't do me any harm. So I was up the Pentlands earlier on, still smelly and sweaty, but it was quite good. Just, I think I was listening to Brian Eno and various, oh God, who else was listening to? Ah, it's just a variety of stuff. The replacements.

Paul Kenny (27:51.866)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Kenny (28:10.027)
The other thing is that titles of my pictures are very, very often music related.

Tim Parkin (28:17.806)
I'm just a couple of those.

Paul Kenny (28:19.486)
yeah there's one thing I was thinking of there's a series of three pictures black and white negative proper photography I did on the Isle of Skye called in a silent way and that was because I was staying there for a week and it absolutely pissed down for a week single day heaving it down and it was in the winter so there was only like three hours of daylight and I sat in a cave at Elgo

listening to Miles Davis in a silo. Every time there was just a slight break in the cloud I could nip out and my camera was there covered in a black sack so my camera was on a tripod pointing at something waiting for the rain to stop and I would just sit in this cave for hours on end listening to Miles Davis in a silo.

Tim Parkin (29:17.12)
sounds familiar. I stayed in the guy who runs the troll, this house, it got a little flat at the back of Inalgal and I remember hiding in the caves over that side of the beach. That's the school. Yeah, I'll guarantee the best weather around that way.

Paul Kenny (29:25.224)
Yeah.

Yeah, just trying to keep that in mind. I know.

yeah i've got another picture in ireland called heaven or las vegas and that's a musical reference and i really like it when people get that one because it's a bit obscure it's the name of a copto twins album

Tim Parkin (29:48.174)
Okay, 4-ID, very creative.

Paul Kenny (29:51.988)
but I once flew out of Los Angeles at night and you fly into the desert over Las Vegas and looking down it was just incredible the lights of the cars you could see the lights of all the casinos and it was just amazing and this picture is of fragments of

found there's a particular sort of shells you find on Irish beach that are very colourful. What's the little... anemone, sea anemone shell. And you get reds and yellows and blues and they've got lots of white spots on them. So the actual picture reminded me of being in the air over Las Vegas. So I used the cocktail twins album Heaven or Las Vegas.

I love it when people get the reference, it's great.

Tim Parkin (30:47.918)
I noticed on your Instagram feed that you're in the music business again with album covers.

Paul Kenny (30:55.951)
yeah, I've a few, done a few, yeah.

Tim Parkin (30:58.326)
Yeah, how did you get into that? Was that requests from people?

Paul Kenny (31:02.281)
It's a bit of a request from people really. I mean did have a few images lodged with an agency and they've used it for a few classical albums. You get like 40 quid, it's not like, make me rich.

Tim Parkin (31:14.606)
It was the feather one that was used on the album I saw.

Paul Kenny (31:20.071)
That's right, was a electronics, young electronics DJ, lad from Newcastle.

Tim Parkin (31:29.228)
Look brilliant, brilliant as an elephant.

Mark Littlejohn (31:31.528)
So how did he find you?

Paul Kenny (31:34.159)
He knows my son. My son plays in bands. My son's played in bands since he was 12.

Paul Kenny (31:42.799)
and the other interesting thing about the link is that my son and this guy used to be in a band together and the band was called John Marmaduke and that's why my Instagram handle and everything else is jmarmaduke

Mark Littlejohn (31:54.376)
Tim Parkin (31:58.199)
Yes.

Mark Littlejohn (31:59.58)
I always wondered why it was J. Maraduke.

Paul Kenny (32:02.099)
Well that's it, because there was a band called John Marmaduke.

Tim Parkin (32:06.318)
I knew the band before I met you.

Paul Kenny (32:08.756)
They were, they were.

Tim Parkin (32:12.878)
don't know how I them before because I think it's on the Glasgow music scene.

Paul Kenny (32:17.449)
I can't remember where they used to play around Preston I think but they weren't together very long, that's a lot of my sons band.

Tim Parkin (32:24.523)
Nah.

Mark Littlejohn (32:29.542)
You still take photographs with a camera, so to speak.

Paul Kenny (32:32.807)
I do, I do, well I'm on a phone, I mean like a phone now but it's I have a little Lumix somewhere, let's see here, that I take pictures with, but they're usually just for reference or for kind of ideas or just to remember something.

Mark Littlejohn (32:36.306)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (32:55.004)
Yeah, so any more exhibitions or anything else coming up?

Paul Kenny (33:00.969)
nothing really at the moment I've just been taken on by a new London gallery so MMX gallery are now representing me

Tim Parkin (33:10.664)
yeah, okay. Have they represented you before or am I thinking... have they represented you before?

Paul Kenny (33:17.139)
No, no, no. I've been with five different galleries in London now. I could draw you a graph of how it goes.

Mark Littlejohn (33:26.312)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (33:27.15)
I I can imagine.

Paul Kenny (33:29.545)
we love you we take you to the ivy for lunch they sell a lot of work suddenly you start costing them money because they're framing work that doesn't sell

Tim Parkin (33:43.352)
Can you make some more of that stuff that's old, please?

Paul Kenny (33:46.013)
and you're totally that's it yeah it makes them more of that and then

Mark Littlejohn (33:51.836)
So it's a more immersion, what it did today, suppose, overheads running the gallery are big, so it's...

Paul Kenny (33:58.506)
I was with one gallery, won't name it, it doesn't exist anymore so I can't name it, the Fine Arts Society, I was with the Fine Arts Society for about two years on New Bond Street, it was the poshest gallery I've ever been into in my life, never mind being represented by them, but they represented me for two years. I thought this is it, I've made it, I'm in clover for the rest of my life. They used to represent Turner, I used to think Jesus, I'm being...

Tim Parkin (34:26.254)
Wow.

Paul Kenny (34:27.401)
I'm being represented by a gallery used to represent Turner and they told me that they aimed to make £15,000 per square metre of wall space per month.

Mark Littlejohn (34:43.538)
Chief.

I suppose it depends how much you charge.

Paul Kenny (34:49.021)
and that my my work was never going to make make that that so bye bye

Tim Parkin (34:56.375)
Mark Littlejohn (34:57.464)
How did he decide how much to charge? How did he decide? You see people's work that's going for a lot of money. Remember somebody, the master's division, and his pictures, but I think he sold at big charity auctions. So obviously he had people, but that then set a reference point for his work, I suppose. And I suppose you'd be going to...

Paul Kenny (35:11.495)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (35:17.933)
on with that.

Paul Kenny (35:18.089)
If we could crack that question mark, think we'd all be... It's all to do with fashion and word of mouth, who is hot, who's not.

Mark Littlejohn (35:23.378)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (35:34.008)
Did you ever get galleries try and convince you to inject artificial rarity into your work?

Paul Kenny (35:41.307)
yeah yeah yeah limit the additions more

Tim Parkin (35:49.268)
exclusivity on those Brazilian things and all that sort of stuff.

Paul Kenny (35:52.531)
Yeah, yeah. But they don't like change. Whenever I... I've never stood still and I look at artists who... who... they've been making the same kind of picture for 30 years. How do you live with yourself? How do you get up in the morning and think I'm going to go in my studio and... and then produce the same kind of picture?

Mark Littlejohn (36:19.368)
But I suppose that's looking at putting bread on the table and just saying, okay, I'll just look at it from a 95, 40 hour a week, Monday to Friday job. As opposed to the labor of love.

Tim Parkin (36:19.405)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (36:35.385)
yeah yeah it seems to work so and that's been my downfall in terms of galleries because I then go the way I've always worked is I make a new body of work and then I used to take when it was kind of when I had 20 25 pictures that I thought were right and were a kind of coherent group I would then take that group to galleries and say I've got this body of work what do you think

and they sometimes they love it sometimes they don't but then you get taken on by a gallery and then I'm always kind of slightly moving or something the big thing with one of my last galleries I broke down was I tried to make light boxes I started to look at my own work on I use an iPad all the time I would look at my own work on iPad and think God they look jewel like on this

Tim Parkin (37:21.293)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (37:25.676)
the transmissive light of them.

Mark Littlejohn (37:26.504)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (37:28.393)
they look amazing so I thought maybe I should try and light them some way differently and then they would if I could transfer this kind of look to something bigger it would be amazing so I spent 18 months it took me 18 months to kind of work it out slow

Tim Parkin (37:47.65)
Remember, chatting to people about seeing it.

Mark Littlejohn (37:49.096)
Yeah, I remember seeing them.

Paul Kenny (37:50.861)
and I found a company in Gateshead who do big advertising stuff for John Lewis stores and things you know you go in the makeup department I'm sure you're in the makeup department of John Lewis all the time Mark you see these flip back adverts for perfumes

Mark Littlejohn (38:07.57)
Yeah, absolutely. Just to make me even more like George Clooney.

Tim Parkin (38:13.751)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (38:14.076)
Yes.

Paul Kenny (38:15.784)
and they make them and I went for a meeting with them and we sat on this table in a little kind of meeting room in this tiny factory on the team valley in the shadow of the angel of the north actually and he rolled one out on the table he just unrolled it I'd never seen anything like it no just they they do a lambda they call it it's a lambda print on the Eurotrans that's how they do it

Tim Parkin (38:33.794)
Well, a light box rolled out.

Mark Littlejohn (38:34.951)
I'm Leapbox.

Tim Parkin (38:37.546)
the transparency itself, yeah. Yes.

Paul Kenny (38:45.264)
but he unrolled one, was a woman's face which was like five times life-size and I could see every single eyelash on that

And then he said, yeah, then we're back like these.

They cost me about £600 to make each one I made five and I've only ever sold one

Mark Littlejohn (39:13.287)
But they were.

Tim Parkin (39:13.358)
Imagine they were a lot in gallery, yeah.

Paul Kenny (39:13.404)
you do that. When I took this idea to the gallery in London I went down I'm going to start making light boxes and the gallery owner said to me I couldn't possibly sell anything to my clients that had a wire hanging out.

Paul Kenny (39:35.57)
So, up.

Tim Parkin (39:39.598)
I've got a question off one of our readers who is asking some advice on becoming a photographer slash artist or whatever you want to name things. He's asking what would be the best way to develop, become, progress as an artist, photographer, whatever. And he's got a choice, he's of attend an art school. Do workshops, tours,

portfolio reviews with established photographers. Just read all that you can, watch YouTube or just not bother. I'm interested in.

Paul Kenny (40:18.696)
Wow. I think my first reaction is that you've got to have something to say. To which photography

Tim Parkin (40:20.174)
Any reactions to the question?

Tim Parkin (40:28.568)
coming up up long enough to stick.

Yeah.

Paul Kenny (40:33.468)
that you've got to something to say to which the solution is photography I mean I like Mark's work, you know I like your work and as soon as I saw your work I thought this is amazing because you've obviously been to places and you look at it and you've obviously thought jeez look at this, this is amazing and then you take a photograph of it and then you somehow in your processing reproduce

those feelings you had when you saw what you saw. Even if it was just a glade in a dark wood with a tree lit up or something. You obviously were there and you thought, look at that. And then you made a picture of it and then you processed it in a way that enhanced the ideas you'd had when you first saw it.

and that's how I think he's got to be, you've got to have... but it's no good just going to places and taking pictures because you've been there and you're showing, look I've been here, look at this, I've been here.

Mark Littlejohn (41:30.843)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (41:40.411)
think it's the case of before we even start with the photography, I some people think, I'm gonna take up something because I've reached a certain age. And they say, right, I'm gonna play golf or I'm gonna take up photography. And for me, as Paul says,

Paul Kenny (41:47.538)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (41:55.57)
Job I was doing was fairly stressful. I started walking more and I started walking more. I started perhaps thinking less. And as Paul said, I would see someone and think, jeesh. And I mean, my kids would just laugh. They'd start taking the mic in the back of the car and say, dad, look at the light on that hill. Or, you know, that sort of thing. And my daughter accuses me, some people watch Friends, some people don't, but there was a character in that briefly for a couple of episodes. Alec Baldwin played him, called Parker.

because he would walk into a room and say, oh, isn't this the best ballroom you've ever seen? Or he'd go into the dry cleaners, isn't this the best dry cleaners you've ever seen? And my kids compared me to that because it was, but for me photography was a byproduct. It then became a case of I wanted something to capture what it was I felt when I saw something. And as Paul says, was really the process was all about.

enhancing the essence of what it is that I saw. And I think for somebody taking up photography, it's not just a case of like, I'm going to buy a camera and I'm going to take some photographs. It's a case of you take up something that appeals to you. And a lot of photographers come to photography through like, you know, look at Joe, Joe Cornish and David Ward, fine art degrees, et cetera. I would love to be able to paint. I can't paint. I use, you know, the split tone instead of painting.

But really it was a love of the landscape. It was a feeling of being out there. It's like Paul was saying before about flying over Las Vegas and saying, look at these. And then seeing the anemone and thinking.

Paul Kenny (43:29.352)
I'm the same, I started off because I saw things that blew my mind. I was brought up on a council estate in Salford, there was no landscape other than pit landscapes and chimneys. I've been doing a lot of thinking about it recently because I lived in the countryside for 35 years.

coast for 35 years and three years ago we made this massive decision to move into town. So we've moved back into the centre of Newcastle. I hardly use my car because we either walk or get the bus with my free bus pass. But it's made me think a lot about my childhood and how my childhood was all based in playing in the remnants of the Industrial Revolution.

So at that time in Salford it was all factories, canals, railways, cobblestones, gas lamps. was literally, and all those kind of images have started to seep into my work again and ideas about that kind of, the shapes and the kind of proximity between where you live and where you work.

very close, tied in together. Canals in particular, used to, one of my kind of escapes when I was a kid was to go to the canal, we used to go fishing in the canal, Bridgewater canal, Leeds Liverpool canal, all of this go through Salford, and they're all there for the cotton industry, and by the side of the canals there's all these factories which said things like soapworks, dyeworks, bleachworks, copperworks.

No, that would.

Mark Littlejohn (45:28.612)
Is that what you call the book Seahawks?

Paul Kenny (45:31.525)
Yeah, it is. why I call my works works because of... My dad used to call the factory the works. It the works Christmas outing or the works kids' party.

Mark Littlejohn (45:40.741)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (45:44.004)
Yeah. I didn't do what, that was the thing. It was the works too.

Paul Kenny (45:47.931)
Yeah, so that's why I call what I do the works. It's a kind of a choice to do it. My website is called Paul Coney Photographic Works. As his play on words.

Mark Littlejohn (46:01.158)
How proud of your C-Works and the fact that it's an incredibly sought after.

Paul Kenny (46:04.936)
It's such a shame that it was just this limited run and that was it, there'd be no more. And I do get requests every week, get emails from people saying can I get a coffee? And I'm very, very proud of it. there's little things happen and you think, I mean, it keeps on cropping up on that Bibliocapes podcast thing.

Mark Littlejohn (46:31.972)
Yeah, yeah, I was on Reunion a little while back and it was in my box of books, shall we say.

Paul Kenny (46:39.803)
Yeah, was the number of times people at the end say, I'm Paul Kenny Seward. I love it. I got a letter once from a guy who lived on the Bay of Funday in Canada.

Mark Littlejohn (46:53.126)
the Bay of Thunder.

Paul Kenny (46:55.175)
Fun Day. Here's a musical reference. The of Fun Day features in a song by Jolie Mitchell. I'm too far from the Bay of Fun Day.

Tim Parkin (47:07.052)
I like that.

Paul Kenny (47:08.395)
Mark Littlejohn (47:09.254)
We need to put a link when this goes on, we need to put a link to some of the playlists.

Paul Kenny (47:14.178)
This guy said my wife and I have lived by the Bay of Funday we walk on the beach every day we've walked on the beach every day for 25 years we got all the couple of you a book and it's changed the way we see the world it's changed the way we see our walk and I thought yeah that's just lovely

Tim Parkin (47:29.56)
That's nice.

Mark Littlejohn (47:34.086)
I mean, that's true. I did, I mean, limited writing, but I got eight or nine little spiels for the, the, Celt book. But one was based on, on you. don't really mention many other people because I always like to think my own inspiration comes from within. But I know when I went to Westeros, you said, you know, I wonder how long before you start looking down. But there's certainly in the back of my mind, when I was looking at the Celt was, was thinking about you and the...

Paul Kenny (47:50.534)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (48:03.812)
the lumosity of the sinuous beauty.

Paul Kenny (48:08.808)
those years I spent going and camping at Apple Cross and just wandering on beaches were fundamental to my whole work for the rest of my life you know I've got favourite pictures I can remember of just two stones you get these beaches on the west coast of Scotland they are called shell beaches because they are more shell fragments than they are sand

there's one picture I got called two stones on a shell beach and there were these two stones which were side by side one was smaller than the other one stone was black with white spots and the other was white with black spots and they just were next to each other and it just you know I didn't want to say look at that you know I've got to take a photograph of that most of my work was pointing downwards

Probably about 12 inches away from the ground.

Mark Littlejohn (49:08.07)
But it's amazing how you can while, I never took a photograph of a sunset before I moved to Westeros. Very rarely looked down at the smaller things, but you just wander along the beach and as you say, you'll see just a plethora of absolutely bog standard commoner garden stones. And then in the middle there'll be something that's like it's come down from Mars. And you know, how did it get there? Why is it there? know, it's in section of beach you walk.

Paul Kenny (49:31.612)
Yeah, yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (49:37.07)
a hundred times and then all of sudden there's a different arrangement. And it just the way it always changes, it's always fascinating, it always just drags the eye.

Paul Kenny (49:40.165)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (49:44.923)
Yeah, tried to talk about that in that my last book was Strandline, the Coles River. And I tried to talk about that in that my work I tried to get these connections between you can walk along, I walk along what in Ireland they call the Strandline, which is the line of Flotsam and Jetsam left by the last high tide. So it's like a

wavy line, there's bits of fishing rope in it, fishing line, there's bits of seaweed, cans, there's plastic bottles, there's fishing lures, you know the sort of line, and you wander along it, and it suddenly struck me one day that this is some kind of record of the moon's last attempt to pull the Atlantic towards you. Yesterday's attempt at

So it's all created by the moon. So somehow walking along this line, you've got some kind of connection to this circling ancient kind of mechanism of the tide and the...

Mark Littlejohn (51:04.033)
I remember when you talked on landscape, you talked about rocks in a wall and that was a celestial connection as well, if I remember correctly.

Paul Kenny (51:12.454)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's making these links. How can I... I've got a new one. I've done some talks recently to people. I tend to talk to camera clubs. It's sometimes very difficult to talk about what I do in a way that doesn't get... I mean, I've had whole groups of people walk out of talks because they just don't... want to... Beans over sands.

If you don't want to listen to Granger, I did a talk on Granger and his photographic subtitles and a whole row of people just stood up and walked out in the middle of it. was really...

Mark Littlejohn (51:48.003)
Yeah, well I've been to Grange over sand so that's no great loss.

Paul Kenny (51:50.566)
then with my later when I say to say to me well have you ever walked along a sea wall a harbor wall and everyone says yeah yeah yeah I said have you ever seen a ring of iron for tethering boats yeah yeah yeah I said and is it orange because it's rusty yeah yeah yeah yeah and is there a circle of rust on the wall yeah yeah yeah yeah and as there's some drips of rust down it yeah yeah yeah yeah

So I try and get that idea into my work, but without taking the photograph of the ring on the wall. So I want that. How long it's been there? How long has it taken to make this? This the ring.

Tim Parkin (52:30.252)
Yeah. When did you first see that after you went to college, you, for art university?

Mark Littlejohn (52:31.192)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (52:37.766)
I did go to art college but straight from Salford so when I first went to art college I was very urban in my art, my art was very urban I met my wife who still my wife 49 years I think we went together 50 years and she's a sort of ruralist painter from Kent

had come up to Newcastle and I had this old Morris van, ex-GPO van and we used to go up the Northumberland coast up to Ambrow and to Holy Island sea houses and it was she was lucky that it in a way I'd never seen anyone look at the landscape and talk about it in a way I've never heard anyone talk about it and then at the end of the year she said well let's let's go up to Scotland

Tim Parkin (53:15.127)
Okay.

Paul Kenny (53:35.334)
Let's go up to northwest Scotland. So we went up to the outer sky and I Couldn't believe my eyes. I couldn't believe my eyes that were on the same Island and yet there was this no trees no we were the places where there was just rock and lichen and sea and how ancient it was and

and slowly and slowly I found this wall with these beautiful melon sized round stones in it covered in lichen part of the highland clearances the history was kind of part of it the wall was made as a sheepfold then I found out it was Torridonian sandstone and that was 350 million years and one day I was standing on the beach and I suddenly thought

wow 350 million years and it just came to me in a flash that that's 350 million winters and 350 million summers that this stone has seen and witnessed and how can I get that kind of thought into a picture

Mark Littlejohn (54:44.761)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (54:56.154)
and that's what I try and do.

Tim Parkin (54:58.701)
successfully.

Mark Littlejohn (55:00.793)
Yeah, it's...

Yeah, it sort of like stops me in my tracks thinking about it. Because I mean, for me, I'm very, very fleeting moments, but it's the fact that those fleeting moments have taken since the beginning of time to actually occur. And to be at the same place, if you like, as that scene. I suppose everything's at the end of the day. Everything's preordained.

Paul Kenny (55:07.984)
Yeah, you do, you should do.

Paul Kenny (55:18.384)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Kenny (55:25.798)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's a bit strange. mean, took me a long time when we moved to start work again. mean, partly, you know, I'm in the midtown, I'm surrounded by houses and noises and we live near a hospital, so we get a lot of sirens, lot of emergency sirens and it's like, very urban and it's taken me

Mark Littlejohn (55:48.111)
Hmm.

Tim Parkin (55:52.098)
I'm in shock.

Mark Littlejohn (55:54.361)
Yeah, I was going to ask how you felt about that, because obviously from your house, you wander out quite OK. You can hear the A1, but you can see the sea. can see the castle way off in the distance. And you've got a beach you can get to in five minutes and wander along with out at sea and not very many people around.

Paul Kenny (56:13.723)
Yeah.

Yeah the move was hard. One of the hardest parts was I packed my studio up and put it in storage and then we moved here and I didn't have a studio. One of the reasons we bought the house was it had a really big garage and the garage was going to become a studio but by the time I had found builders to do it, found the money to do it, it was like four months.

Mark Littlejohn (56:16.409)
Bon...

Paul Kenny (56:46.285)
whole studio was in storage for five months and then it got it out and set it all back up again and it all felt very different. I tend to be affected a lot by atmosphere, the humidity, because of the things I make, these plates with dried sea water, if you get a really humid day they turn back into liquid on the plate.

Mark Littlejohn (56:55.705)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (57:16.271)
So it took me a long time to sort of get the feel of this new room, new place to work. And also get into grips with this idea that I couldn't walk out and see an owl hunting in the evening like I used to, or see deer coming across the field.

Tim Parkin (57:36.046)
Are you going to go on any holidays up to the coast anywhere or to Scotland perhaps?

Paul Kenny (57:42.309)
I've got non planned I'd really like to do it but it's kind of getting one of the one of the biggest drawbacks is I've got electric car now and you suddenly tethered a bit by where you can go to or how quickly you can get there where you've got to stop and things

Tim Parkin (57:58.264)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (58:04.933)
Yeah, there's more more chargers, although there's one charger in Poole U, but it's outside a guy's house who's a complete numpty. So he deliberately parks his car in front of the charging point because he's in dispute that they put the... So he gets the parking tickets, he's not paying them, we're just keeping on giving him the parking tickets. But yeah, you get some dodgy attitudes.

Paul Kenny (58:17.196)
Yeah

Paul Kenny (58:22.404)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (58:26.351)
Yeah, I'd really like to go back. I don't really want to go back to Lombain where that war was. That kind of slowly got more more difficult for me because it was well-forged, a lot of the ideas and the kind of images I kind of in the early days. But then somebody bought the land and a big deer fence went up and you couldn't get down to the seashore very easily.

Mark Littlejohn (58:52.824)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (58:53.94)
traffic's a bit more as well now than it was.

Paul Kenny (58:56.365)
a bit more. I say this in talks now, when I first went to North West Scotland, if you saw another person with a tripod, it was a real, real unusual thing. And we would then kind of bond, know, look, somebody with a tripod, but now you go and you can't, you can't move for it.

Mark Littlejohn (58:57.699)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (59:18.212)
You walk out in front of our house, down towards the beach, and there can be groups with tripods. And my missus would say, more fecking photographers.

Paul Kenny (59:30.053)
The last big trip we did, went right over, we were up to Durness and around that area and we stayed in the Durness Hotel for a week. But this 500 thing seems to have, it was just like lines of camper vans or motorbikes.

Mark Littlejohn (59:43.972)
Uhhh...

Tim Parkin (59:51.078)
I was climbing at the Belacna Bar a couple of months back and we're just looking down at the hell that is, the amount of campervans and motorhomes trying to crash into each other.

Paul Kenny (01:00:02.629)
come on the bars very very very in our family it says they did for a Volvo gearbox for me that yeah and a Volvo 240 estate and we were going up there and the gearbox went halfway up

Mark Littlejohn (01:00:06.21)
YAY, SOME!

Tim Parkin (01:00:13.196)
there.

Tim Parkin (01:00:20.556)
Not the best. Long way to a rescue.

Mark Littlejohn (01:00:20.729)
James. No.

Paul Kenny (01:00:23.684)
I managed to get to the campsite, I forgot in first gear.

Mark Littlejohn (01:00:27.697)
Hehehehehe

Paul Kenny (01:00:30.437)
and the next day rang the guy in lock Karen and the guy in lock Karen came out the next day and he rented me a battered old Ford Escort while he mended mine and then the next day I went over and said what was the prognosis he said oh I can get you a replacement gearbox from Volvo delivered tomorrow or I can get this refurbished in Inverness take 11 weeks

Tim Parkin (01:00:58.862)
Yeah, island time.

Paul Kenny (01:01:00.591)
So it was a very very costly

Mark Littlejohn (01:01:04.964)
Yeah, tomorrow's a very popular word in the Highlands. You've got four or five different definitions of tomorrow.

Tim Parkin (01:01:08.718)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (01:01:08.931)
And then.

The ultimate end of that story was, you'd probably work out when it was, because paying by credit card had just come out. And they used to have these machines where they put the card in and swipe back and forth. His maximum was 100 pounds. And I think the bill was 1,000 pounds.

Tim Parkin (01:01:27.464)
Yeah.

Paul Kenny (01:01:39.877)
And the final till receipt was about six yards long. It had it pinned on the kitchen wall for years.

Tim Parkin (01:01:52.546)
Well, thank you very much, Paul, for joining us. It's been really enjoyable and I'm hoping you could share some of your music with us. I'm keen on it.

Paul Kenny (01:01:54.885)
Is that it?

Paul Kenny (01:02:01.135)
I will,

Mark Littlejohn (01:02:01.26)
Yeah, no, it'd be great. Always looking for new music.

Paul Kenny (01:02:03.941)
I'll put a few of my gems on for being creative and for happy happy sounds when you've done something.

Tim Parkin (01:02:12.652)
That'd be great. And when can we see the new work? you working on the...

Paul Kenny (01:02:17.37)
There's a few on the new on the on the MMX website now just gone on

Tim Parkin (01:02:21.374)
OK, great. Check them out. you very much Paul and Mark. Hope to see you again.