On Landscape - Any Questions Private

Tim Parkin (01:28.002)

Hello and welcome to On Landscape, Any Questions, episode two with our usual guest, Joe Cornish, and our special guest, Lizzie Shepherd. And we've asked our readers for a few questions. We have a couple of pages of interesting questions submitted. And we said to make the questions roughly around printing and exhibiting, because I know Lizzie does quite a lot, Joe does a lot of it as well. And also around skiing.

because I know you've been away quite a few times on some trips skiing. Is Sweden, is that correct?

Lizzie Shepherd (02:06.25)
Yeah, Sweden's one of them, although I haven't been to Sweden for a wee while. Norway is also the normal place for cross-country skiing, but last year we actually did some ski touring off a boat in Svalbard, which was pretty amazing. But different sort of skiing that time, big skis rather than the little skinny ones.

Tim Parkin (02:19.047)
Yeah, I can.

Tim Parkin (02:23.502)
Yeah, is that a bit different than doing it in Sweden? There are not many polar bears in Sweden.

Lizzie Shepherd (02:29.162)
No, not that I'm aware of. Yeah, we just have to, yeah, I mean, normally you're desperate to see a polar bear, but most of the time there you were desperate not to. I mean, they're, they're armed and so on, but they've never had to use those guns, thankfully, but yeah, we saw one from a long way away, which is pretty amazing, but I'd love to get up closer when not on speed.

Tim Parkin (02:52.726)
Well, we do have a question about skiing which we'll include for later in the talk, but we'll start off on a little bit about exhibiting and printing. Now, I'll ask you first, Lizzie. You've had a few exhibitions, is that right? And you print your own work. Now, how did you get into starting to produce exhibitions or put them on and how long have you been...

Lizzie Shepherd (03:16.602)
Um, yeah, well, I mean, I've probably been printing my own stuff for about 20 years or so now, I think. And I used to, I was part of a group, a sort of Yorkshire based group, which I think probably still exists, called Brigantia, which is a mix of different artists across all sort of genre. And I used to do sort of events with them. So that was probably initially how I got into it, I think. And then a few things in local galleries and so on.

So it's a trick, I mean as you'll both know, it's a tricky one in the UK. I think it's not a, photography isn't as valued as we'd probably like as an art form.

Tim Parkin (03:59.846)
So what's your experience been like exhibiting? Has it been productive for you?

Lizzie Shepherd (04:05.154)
very mixed. I did, I exhibited at an event down south in Guildford a few years ago and that was quite a revelation because that was just way better than anything I've ever done in the world I have to say and I think you know that does probably speak for itself a bit but yes it's a tricky one the kind of the events over weekends and stuff I stopped doing those I found they could be a bit bitter.

Tim Parkin (04:32.319)
Yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (04:33.558)
So destroying, to me to say. And so mixed, you just can't tell.

Tim Parkin (04:39.37)
And what about you Joe? I know you've had quite a few exhibitions, have they been generally successful?

Joe Cornish (04:44.835)
Definitely not Tim, not economically anyway. I think creatively I'd like to think so. But I just wanted to say that in spite of Lizzie's kind of obvious modesty, she was at the gallery in Northampton, she was our most successful photographer by quite a distance. So although it might have been steady rather than overwhelmingly productive Lizzie, you were the star of our show there.

Tim Parkin (04:47.527)
Yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (05:12.982)
Yeah, well, I can't.

Joe Cornish (05:13.035)
pretty much all the time. And we did consistently sell Lizzie's work. It didn't really seem to matter what the state of the economy was. Her work has a real universal appeal, I think, and that's pretty rare. Yeah, it's just, you know, to confirm what Lizzie's saying about the market. It's very, very difficult in the UK in general, and it's particularly difficult in the North where, I mean, I think the economy is obviously not as buoyant, and people are quite careful with their

whether there's a kind of a willingness to appreciate that in order to do a certain kind of photography you do need, you still need to make a living. So and I think that's, you know, as a working photographer there are only so many ways that you can do that. So but if you wanted to go out and just photograph for the arts, for art's sake and make prints, I'm not sure I know anybody who can do that and make a living.

other than maybe Michael Kenner.

Tim Parkin (06:13.578)
I think in America it's very different. People have bigger walls and perhaps bigger budgets. What I will ask briefly before I get into people's questions is, do you have any idea what people buy? Are there any patterns to print purchases from exhibitions? Lizzie first.

Lizzie Shepherd (06:30.973)
If I knew I might be rich. No, I mean one of the things I think that probably pleased me most about the sort of work I saw at the gallery over the years was I think, you know, when I first started exhibiting, I kind of assumed I'd need to show local work. And probably that was mostly, you know, what I did then, you know, kind of landscapes of places, if you like. But over the years,

Joe Cornish (06:32.977)
I'm sorry.

Lizzie Shepherd (06:56.402)
I found it was definitely more, you know, places that could have been anywhere, but sold, which was nice. Or, you know, slightly more abstract takes perhaps. So...

Tim Parkin (07:00.93)
That's really sweet, isn't it?

Tim Parkin (07:09.534)
And how did you find the particular idea of patterns of purchase or is it fairly random?

Joe Cornish (07:16.683)
I mean, I'm just really interested again to listen to Lizzie's anecdotes on that, because I would say, for me, probably there's been more emphasis on place. But I also think a large amount of that is to do with what the box people put you in. And, you know, I think I was probably put in the in the landscape, vista box a long time ago. And yet, you know, I'm very much a general practitioner as a photographer, I love

photographing pretty much everything and anything in the landscape. And of course it somehow in a way feels more creatively productive, not productive, maybe more just satisfying when you sell work that you feel is really artistic and expresses something really personal. And we should do sell those pictures to those customers who, you know, who don't care where it is, but they're just inspired by the atmosphere and the composition and the...

and the creativity of the work. But yeah, the reality, the harsh reality for me is that many of my pictures were of rosemary topping and Whitby, which are the other two, yeah, very, very well known destinations. I mean, I'd like to think they were good photographs, but you know, that's not really the point. A lot of it was to do with personal association and I benefited from that to an extent, but I also suffered from it a little, I think too.

Tim Parkin (08:27.03)
productive vein.

Lizzie Shepherd (08:29.284)
Yes.

Tim Parkin (08:43.89)
I will get on to questions. And my first question is from Glenn Kruger. And it's a question about your Woodland Photography Exhibition and asking about how you mounted your pictures. So he says, I couldn't.

Joe Cornish (08:57.371)
Tim, I'm sorry, I'm going to jump in there because I actually already responded to Glenn. So he's had a response from me, but yeah, very, very briefly, it was about whether to dry mountain glaze, for anybody listening. And I think the answer is it depends. So, but I have responded to Glenn.

Tim Parkin (09:03.296)
Oh, okay.

Tim Parkin (09:11.691)
Yes.

Tim Parkin (09:18.558)
Okay, we'll go on to the question from Matt Bishop. And I think it's a really interesting one actually. If Peter Dombrovskis was alive today, what level of engagement with digital photography would he have or not? Would he stay natural to the landscape or would he move with the times? And I think that's quite intriguing about who he was, what he did and the environment he worked in. So Joe first, I think.

Joe Cornish (09:41.739)
Yeah, it is. And I feel I do feel I hope I feel qualified to answer this because I am a big fan of Peter's work and have studied it in depth. Have never met him sadly, so I couldn't really have asked. And when he died, which was I think 1996, it was it really preceded digital. So any kind of decent digital capture. I do believe he would have adopted digital because

it would have made sense for Peter the way he worked. He would have been able to carry slightly less gear if he'd wanted to, for example, and to make the same sort of photographs that he did, but with a great deal more control. Not to say that his work's uncontrolled, but he was obviously restrained, but in exactly the same way as all of us who shot large format film was, by the amount of film you could carry and the nature of the material itself, the strong signature of film, if you will.

and the limitations of that. I'm absolutely 100% certain he would have stuck with his agenda creatively, which was to look at nature and to try and reflect on its beauty as it was. I just don't think there's any sign in his work that he would have wished to have gone creative, quote unquote. I mean, not to...

Tim Parkin (10:51.824)
Yeah.

Joe Cornish (11:10.511)
His work is creative, of course, but it's very much in the way of being creative with the grain and flow of the natural world, and always respecting and honouring it as a reality, as opposed to a starting point for a personal exploration artistically, if that makes sense.

Tim Parkin (11:33.266)
Yeah, I think he had a very, very strong sense of his identity and how he wanted to present the world from, and it was quite consistent across most of his work, I think. I'm developed, you know, Don Brodsky's work quite well, Lizzy.

Lizzie Shepherd (11:47.134)
Yeah, not as well as you guys but I am familiar with it and I you know, definitely I think I've to me though You know from what I've known and seen there'd be no doubt that he would have You know continued in that same vein. I'll be using modern technology. I mean there's um, I'm Can't for life me thinking for surname But you know Jeff who's on Facebook and previous on flicker who actually knew him and I think it's a good friend of his And that's the one yes, and he I see put the telephone here you know, he's

Tim Parkin (12:07.458)
It's just words.

Lizzie Shepherd (12:14.51)
used to use film and is now using digital, but his style of photography, from what I can see, has remained constant. Yeah, so, you know, and I suspect it would have been a very similar story.

Tim Parkin (12:20.15)
Pretty much so, yeah, it's transitioned really well.

Tim Parkin (12:29.066)
I've got a question from Joe for you, Lizzie, here. A couple of things. First of all, it's like a question of how you got started with your own photography. And also, do you have a photographic agenda at the moment? Have you had a photographic agenda historically? And at the moment, what is it?

Lizzie Shepherd (12:43.182)
Go.

Lizzie Shepherd (12:47.406)
Yeah, we're getting into photography. It's a funny one because I never, that's partly because my memory is not what it might be, but I mean, you know, I had a camera since I was about nine or 10 and a couple of my brothers were keen photographers and my parents were to a degree, you know, I mean, they've always documented their travels and I think I just, you know, I just started using one as a matter of course.

And I guess it was for me, it was partly for you, when I went away, particularly once I got a bit older on the holiday stuff, it was a way of just, you know, taking travel photographs and so on. And then I got more into university and I did actually want to be a photographer when I left university, but I, and I did work for a few studio photographers and things in Edinburgh. But then I, yeah, I met Rob and got a bit distracted and.

actually wanted to do travel photography and I thought well I don't want to be away all the time and so I kind of it kind of went on the back burner a bit until I came back into it and I can't tell you exactly what triggered my getting into it more seriously again I guess just that it's been always there and it's I think for me the nicest thing about photography is how it how it helps you see and I just think you know that it does you know it just focuses your vision and your ability to notice things so much and it's

Tim Parkin (14:11.327)
When were you first exposed to a classic landscape photography?

Lizzie Shepherd (14:18.646)
Gosh, um, I don't-

Do you mean as in other photographers or doing it myself?

Tim Parkin (14:26.218)
Yeah, as in other photographers, I'm just wondering what...

Lizzie Shepherd (14:28.658)
Yeah, I mean, I remember going to, I don't know if there was an exhibition at the Royal Photographic site in Bath, but I remember buying an Ansel Adams calendar or something there years and years and years and years ago. And, you know, that would probably be one of my earliest memories in terms of a classical sort of photographer.

And then, yeah, I started getting outdoor photography, I think, relatively early days. And that maybe kind of reawakened things a wee bit. And we've always, you know, we've always we used to live in Edinburgh. We used to go away to different islands and the highlands and stuff all the time. Sadly, I was too sort of lazy to carry much gear with me in those days, which is silly because I was an awful lot younger than I am now. It would have been a lot easier. But but it was more about being out there.

Tim Parkin (15:01.462)
Hmm.

Tim Parkin (15:04.724)
Yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (15:25.159)
and you know I did take photos but they weren't very good on the home to be honest.

Tim Parkin (15:29.438)
Is that still the case now?

Joe Cornish (15:30.079)
Actually, I'm sure you're being far too modest. Sorry, I'm sure. I'm sure your pictures have been brilliant.

Lizzie Shepherd (15:35.678)
No, I'm not socialising.

Tim Parkin (15:40.278)
So in terms of your current mode of photography, do you still do photography mainly as a way of seeing the world? So the actual travel and...

Lizzie Shepherd (15:48.302)
I think

Lizzie Shepherd (16:17.554)
I don't know, a year or so. And I thought, well, actually, you know, for me, photography is about doing what you love. And if what I love is doing the same thing, but trying to do it better, then do I need to branch out? I don't know. It probably sounds horribly lazy and unambitious and unadventurous, but actually I just feel there's so much out there and it's so hard to do justice to the world around us that, you know, why not just keep trying?

Joe Cornish (16:45.883)
Can I jump in there, Tim? Because I just think that that's really fascinating what Lizzie just said. I totally echo that sentiment in a way. And I had a kind of similar, almost like a crisis about 20 years ago, not long after I finished working on First Light. And I started working on Scotland's coast. And then, as you may remember, I did a book called Scotland's Mountains a few years later. And at that point, I felt

I felt like I was kind of stuck in a groove and, you know, was I just repeating myself and how could I possibly justify that creatively and so feeling quite guilty about it almost. And when I worked on Scotland's Mountains, it was so difficult. It was so, it was so practically difficult. I really couldn't start reinventing the wheel. And so I just carried on doing as Lizzie was saying, doing what I love to do and, and just having to

having to deal with the practical difficulties that come of working in, you know, falling snow and up high mountains, you know, and being very, very tired or out for very, very long hours. All the things that make doing this kind of work quite a challenge physically and emotionally, as well as creatively. And since then, I've had lots of conversations with various people, including non-photographers, about how they work. And I've come to the realization that this kind of notion

of needing to be original all the time. It's a kind of, it's like a Western construct in a way, which actually doesn't really make sense. Because what you do, it has to come from the heart, ultimately it has to come from within. And to do something that's new for the sake of it is basically phony. But there's a number of ways of thinking about it, which help.

to keep you excited and interested and if you like, creative. And my answer to that question is the X and Y axis of photography where the X axis, the horizontal axis is exploring the world using your technique and your method and your aesthetic. Not to repeat what you've done, but because every encounter will be different in the landscape. And that's equivalent to being a very good musician who also tries

Joe Cornish (19:14.691)
a different instrument here and there. And so the different locations we go to, the geography, if you like, that inspires us with its novelty and its fascination and all of the lessons we learn about the world as a result. But the places where we really can be original are actually close to home. Why? Because we're already familiar with them. So we're already in that mode of wanting to not repeat what we've done before. So we start to then experiment naturally.

to look for new perspectives or to try new technique or to look at composition differently in order to push our kind of creative envelope. So that's the Y axis. And I personally think that that's how the creative life evolves, at least in our medium. There's the breadth of nature and the world that we look at. And then there's the depth of our own perception and creativity.

which is a vertical one. And it tends to be focused, not always, but it tends to be focused around where we live, you know, what we're really familiar with, where we're already able to extend more naturally. And I think that provides an authentic way of translating the world. And of course, eventually you bring those new techniques and ideas into your other locales and locations. Sorry, I'm waffling on too long, but does that make sense?

Lizzie Shepherd (20:37.846)
No, that does, it's sort of quite reassuring in a way.

Joe Cornish (20:41.667)
Don't worry about it. Exactly. I think it's, you know, you just be yourself and I would argue, but you know, you will want to keep pushing yourself naturally. I think that just comes, you know, from the work that you do close to home or places that you know and love and have been too many, many times. And that gives you the kind of permission to try new things.

Tim Parkin (21:03.818)
That reminds... Go on, listen.

Lizzie Shepherd (21:03.958)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you do sort of try new stuff, but it's what I call an evolvement more than a, you know, complete sort of turnabout change.

Tim Parkin (21:17.958)
reminds me of the Helsinki bus station theory. I'm not sure if either of you are familiar with that, which is I won't I won't go into depth with it. But if you if you Google Helsinki bus station theory, the idea is that if you want to get anywhere, a lot of photographers get on a bus or an idea, use it for a little while, think it's not working for them. So they go back and start with another idea getting on another bus, they go back to the bus station, get on another bus.

Lizzie Shepherd (21:22.266)
Uh, yes.

Tim Parkin (21:44.638)
And the idea behind the theory is if you want to get anywhere, you've got to stay on the bloody bus. Because that's where you get somewhere.

Lizzie Shepherd (21:49.571)
Yes, I remember that one. It always makes me think of that awful song, that Ty Yeh, the ribbon, remember it? I know.

Tim Parkin (21:58.233)
Oh dear, Radio T Classics.

Joe Cornish (22:01.383)
I'm intrigued by the fact of it being Helsinki. I've not heard that one. But I mean, I do think it's true that you have to stay on the bus. At least creatively speaking, you have to keep working. And that's the same with all media. You know, if you talk to any musicians, writers, poets, painters and so on, they all work all the time. You know, to become any good. And you go through those periods where nothing much is happening and it's...

frustrating and you don't feel inspired, you just carry on. And sooner or later, something happens that, you know, gives you a moment and you find yourself once again, moving forward or however you want to put it. And by the way, personally, I'm not at all of the view that you should have an outcome in mind in any case. I mean, I think the process itself is really what counts and the joy of just being a...

a photographer, being a landscape photographer, I mean, it's just such an amazing thing to do. I think we're incredibly lucky. And so, you know, we should be grateful for that and nothing else and, you know, keep going out because it's just great fun to be outside with a camera. And if anything else happens and we happen to produce a good picture, well then, you know, happy days, but it is essential.

Tim Parkin (23:25.11)
Got the next question for either of you or both of you. It's from Paul Belfort, sorry, from Kai Thompson, this next one. And he said it's inspired by a Van Der Lefse interview, which is, is there a big difference or is there a difference at all between the way men and women take photographs? I'll start with a little one there. I think there is, I think there's.

Generally, if you look at it on an average basis, I think there is a different point of view, which is to do with character, but I'm interested in what either of you say. Lizzie first.

Lizzie Shepherd (24:04.386)
know you see because you know I know I know people that sort of you know if there was sort of like a thought that you know women said I don't know more sensitive pictures or go about it in a quieter way say or something like that I don't know but you know I can think of a lot of blokes that would apply to equally and you know likewise I can you I can think of you know stereotypes from

either gender that would potentially fit the other. So it's a tricky one.

Tim Parkin (24:37.851)
There's a big Zen crossing in the middle, isn't there, where most people are very similar?

Lizzie Shepherd (24:41.651)
Yeah.

I, you know...

Lizzie Shepherd (24:48.366)
I think it would be true to say that there's a lot more, from what I can see from my own experience, there's a lot more female photographers than male photographers who are more into some of the alternative techniques and things like that. I think that would definitely be true. But in terms of approach, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Tim Parkin (25:13.954)
show.

Joe Cornish (25:17.387)
sure if I'm qualified to answer but I guess I think it's a cultural difference. Are the cultural differences? Yes, because on the whole I think that men feel a pressure to quote unquote achieve, perhaps more so than women do, but I and yet creatively I would argue that some of them the most pioneering photographers of art.

of our day, of our time are most definitely women. You know, without giving any names, nearly almost all of really the leading photographers in the world that I think I would look up to as being creatively pioneering a female. I mean, there are some men as well, I don't think it's a strong, you know, huge schism there. And I'm not saying that men aren't capable of creativity, far from it. I think women are every bit as ambitious as men in terms of

the creativity. I think that there's, there might be one aspect as a workshop leader that I've observed, which is that, is that women are on the whole seem to be much less interested in equipment and much more interested in the process of creating pictures. That's not to say that men are not, of course, but there is a lot of men who love the gear and spend a lot of time talking about it and

which it isn't really, other than that it's like being a musician in a way, knowing your instrument well is helpful because you need to have good technique to be able to control and be consistent and so on. And that's the same for, same in music, same in photography. And most leading female photographers are brilliant technicians. They just don't talk about it very much. So, because it's not the forefront of the...

thought process, just a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. But I think that's true of all good photographers, the equipment and the technique is just a means to an end, and the, whatever the end is, you don't really know. But what you're trying to do is express something meaningful to you, and that gives significance to the process. I'm not sure if that, it all sounds a bit amorphous, but...

Joe Cornish (27:41.983)
I'm really, really reluctant to get into any kind of gender division here, because I think that it's a bit provocative and we all know of exceptions to the rules that people have.

Lizzie Shepherd (27:46.808)
Yes.

Tim Parkin (27:51.874)
Yeah, there's no rules splitting everybody up is there. But I think on the music side, it could be quite an interesting parallel there, because I look at guitarists and I look at male versus female guitarists in the sort of hobbyist amateur level. And I think as a general rule, men are more interested in flashy, showing off type guitar playing, and women are more interested in songs and the final output. And that's

That's more what I've seen as an average. As I say, you can't make any rules with this. And I think with the photography.

Lizzie Shepherd (28:28.758)
No, and I don't think that would apply to-

Tim Parkin (28:31.658)
With what? With classical.

Lizzie Shepherd (28:33.462)
With class, I can think of people of either gender who play in what I would consider a relatively similar sort of vein, if you like. So I'm not sure it applies so much there.

Tim Parkin (28:52.354)
We'll move on to another controversial question.

Joe Cornish (28:53.367)
Well, I was going to say, if we're sorry, Tim, just to say we're going to get into guitar playing, although I know nothing about guitar playing, but I know a few amazing guitarists. And I, you know, I'm just thinking of, of say, Eric Clapton or the Mark Knopfler, who are incredibly sensitive guitarists. So I would I would argue so, you know, and.

play with an extraordinary level of soul and commitment, which isn't to do with being flashy. So, you know, just to defend men briefly there. I'm sure you were saying among amateur guitarists. So that's a...

Lizzie Shepherd (29:26.85)
Hehehe

Tim Parkin (29:31.162)
Yeah, it's a general rule about why people get into things and I think men often have different ways of looking at hobbies. And I've seen that with quite a few friends with cycling, for instance. There's a different approach to why people do things, but I'll leave that one. We'll move on to another controversial topic. There's a question from Cole Belford.

Joe Cornish (29:53.288)
I see you.

Tim Parkin (29:56.862)
And he's asking, saying about many people visiting or running workshops in the stunningly beautiful Faroe Islands. The Faroe Islands don't come without their controversy. And I'll try and make this a bit more generic. Do photographers have a responsibility to be aware and react to the environmental and ethical considerations of where they photograph and what they do?

we'll use maybe the spiral and this is my example maybe some I'll start with that one Joe.

Lizzie Shepherd (30:28.523)
Yes.

Joe Cornish (30:35.563)
Okay, so I'll put my cards on the table. I don't go to the pharaohs and I won't go to the pharaohs. However, I would not judge anyone who went to the pharaohs negatively because I think it's a personal decision. And I don't think the pharaoh island's landscape is guilty for the kind of cultural values of the pharaohese. I also think that all of these issues are extraordinarily complex.

And I think to just judge superficially is always a little bit risky. So in terms of the grind or the grind, I mean, that sounds on the face of it, absolutely appalling. What happens there? I'm more concerned generally about the idea of a culture which, which resists the international whaling commissions desire to either restrict or ban whaling globally. And

I don't think there's any need for the Faroese to kill whales, dolphins and other cetaceans as they do. But the landscape itself is a huge draw for landscape photographers. I understand why people want to go there, but I personally wouldn't go, no.

Tim Parkin (31:52.758)
listening.

Lizzie Shepherd (31:55.49)
Yeah, I think Joe's comment was very fair and valid and I couldn't really argue with anything he said there. I have been to the fair as well, it's Rob and I went about, gosh, it is about 10 years ago now and thought it was a stunning landscape. I didn't really, I was aware of, although perhaps not to the degree then about what goes on and it does on the face that horrified me.

The one thing that has stuck in my mind is that, and I can't remember his name, either Alex, somebody, Scottish photographer, who spent some time out there, used the big format cameras. And I remember him saying something about the fact that it wasn't as straightforward as people think. Now, I've no idea what it is, but I don't know enough to, on the face of it, it sounds absolutely horrific, is all I can say.

Tim Parkin (32:35.457)
How in-

Tim Parkin (32:50.784)
I think that's.

Lizzie Shepherd (32:51.822)
it's hard to imagine how one could justify it but I don't know the facts. But

Tim Parkin (32:57.234)
Yeah, I think this is the problem a lot of these ethical decisions is they are very much reacting to publicity, because Japan has equal atrocities. America has equal atrocities. I think most countries have their own version of bad behavior. I think it's very easy to focus on the pharaohs because it's a small country, and a very solid example of what happens there.

Lizzie Shepherd (33:20.133)
Mm.

Tim Parkin (33:27.126)
to make an ethical decision on the Faroe Islands and be making ethical decisions about every country you visit.

Lizzie Shepherd (33:35.38)
Yeah.

It is a tricky one. I haven't been back. I haven't really, would I go back? I don't know really. But yeah, I think, I mean, as a more general thing, you know, as a landscape photographer, I guess, and I think maybe Joe's sort of hinting at that, you know, it's more about the, you know, I suppose, responsibility towards that, isn't it? And, you know, trying to protect places and not, you know, not trash the places you visit, obviously. And that's very much...

Tim Parkin (34:05.653)
Yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (34:06.966)
think within our remit and should be within our control as best as possible and that is obviously you know in some respects a huge issue in some areas now that's probably more as a photographer where my focus would lie.

Joe Cornish (34:22.495)
Yes, I mean, I think, sorry, Tim, I think that, but I don't think this is right about that. I think it is, I mean, ethics are, let's face it, they're not a kind of most of us are not really educated in the, you know, this particular area of thought, and it takes it, there's a history to everything in culture. And we should be mindful of that, you know, we, there are, you know, there are, as you said, there is appalling behaviour.

Tim Parkin (34:22.687)
I know I-

Joe Cornish (34:50.207)
in almost every nation of any size, at least on the planet. And I think the reason that the fair is just so stark is because it's a small population and they have this very, very extreme particular method. I mean, perhaps some people might feel the same way about Spain because of bullfighting. And for example, which seems on the face of it, remarkably cruel and very egotistical and typically, from a...

particular kind of cultural position, but no doubt people who do bullfighting can probably justify it for reasons that are completely opaque and baffling to most of us. So I'm, you know, I'm finding generally these questions, they do need to be discussed and I do think there is, there's a point where we need to take responsibility for what we do, you know, and I've already made my own position on the fair is clear, but at the same time I do not judge.

I can't judge them personally, this is how I feel about it. But yeah, let's have more of these discussions, these are really, really interesting. And one thing I would like to appeal for though, overall is tolerance. So I think there's far too little of that in conversations. People seem to be very keen to make and pass judgments as if they knew everything about the subject, whereas the reality is most of us do not.

Tim Parkin (36:12.518)
It's polarizing. I would hope that just as landscape photography seems to have its fashions, the fashions for where to go seem to be moving on. I think places like Tenerife will become trendy, Faroes will lose some of its attraction. I think the only place that doesn't lose its attraction for fashion is the Iceland. It's always of interest, as long as the lava doesn't cover the airfield, which looks like might happen soon.

Lizzie Shepherd (36:34.038)
Yes.

Lizzie Shepherd (36:38.582)
I know, gosh yes, I was reviewing that the other day, it does sound a bit close.

Joe Cornish (37:00.903)
Yeah, it

Tim Parkin (37:11.017)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Joe Cornish (37:14.256)
And yeah, it's certainly probably only going to increase the amount of interest in there is an Iceland in tourism and photographic tourism

Tim Parkin (37:21.706)
Well, if you think now you can land in the aircraft and see the volcano outside the window as you're landing.

Lizzie Shepherd (37:21.975)
Yes.

Lizzie Shepherd (37:27.735)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (37:29.062)
Yeah.

Joe Cornish (37:29.231)
Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. Amazing. I mean, the great thing about that is it really, sorry, just briefly, it does have that element of the sublime about it, of the kind of terrifying reality of our planet, which could easily kill us if we are not sufficiently careful.

Tim Parkin (37:49.894)
I'm on that similar subject in a way. One of our questions from Ian Meads, and it's about, he's got a few questions, but one in particular is about the way that he loves Lizzie's photograph of the birch trees in Norway or Sweden, depending on where they were taken. And he mentions that they remind him of Sho Hoshino's photographs of birch trees in Japan, which went on landscape recently.

and Gabriele Stankovic's photographs of birch trees in Norway. And we had a few comments on the natural landscape competition this year about how many pictures were of snowy landscapes. And I was interested in what you think about why is snow and the cold and these arctic landscapes, why are they so fascinating to photographers? Lizzie.

Lizzie Shepherd (38:42.07)
Oh, how long have you got? Well, I guess, I mean, there's the light, isn't there, that you often get, I guess, with the snow, aside from what the light is like, whether it's good or bad, like the snow is often bouncing it back at you a bit, isn't it? So you've often got a lovely sort of, and that's what's really sunny, a lovely sort of gentle light, you know, almost like the shadows filled in a bit, which appeals to me.

I guess snow, a bit like mist and fog, it does simplify things. And, you know, I do love some of my sort of more chaotic scenes. So I guess the snow maybe makes them slightly more palatable. And yeah, but I mean, it's just a funny one, though. Why so particularly snow? Maybe it's just that I think it's the gentleness really of the colours that can go with it as well, probably for me.

And also perhaps that kind of particularly in the more extreme environments, that kind of struggle between, you know, nature and, you know, the conditions that things can seemingly thrive in. I mean, it always amazes me when we're cross-country skiing in Norway and we saw the same in Sweden as the birches, this is what they can sort of put up with and seemingly prosper. And they're tough little trees. So I think...

you know, that's part of it is that kind of struggle you see almost in how nature seems to find a way of just coping with such extreme, extreme conditions. And obviously, if you're going further afield, be that Iceland or, you know, Svalbard or anywhere else, you know, you've got all the amazing ice formations and glaciers and so on. So it's, I guess it's a combination of things.

But at that extreme, it becomes really quite an exotic landscape as well.

Tim Parkin (40:42.433)
Ciao.

Joe Cornish (40:43.959)
Wow, well, I mean, I think Lizzie sort of said almost everything that could be said about snow, which is relevant to us as photographers. But I've just got back from Norway, by the way. So lucky me. And had nearly two weeks in nonstop snowstorm. And I loved every second of it, really, whatever the conditions, all of the things that Lizzie said, the magic of the lighting and the. I.

Lizzie Shepherd (41:00.887)
No.

Joe Cornish (41:12.047)
think it is the simplification ultimately. And after all, it's very difficult to photograph woodland anyway. But what snow does do is it exposes trees as marks on white on a white ground as if you were drawing or using charcoal, especially birch trees because they're quite slender and lots of little twigs and fiddly.

Joe Cornish (41:41.947)
there's a particular type of snow, that each twig will take the snow and just almost dissolve into these soft forms. You know, just to get little clues to where they are to these wonderful shapes. I guess it's hard to describe it. Is it just a mystery to know exactly why? But yeah, I think the monochrome nature of it helps to simplify too, so.

You're not necessarily coping with lots of color. And so the linear graphic expressive with or without mountains behind, it all becomes very exciting and inspiring. And it's, in many ways, it's easier than photographing in a kind of full color spring or summer landscape. And I think that ease is part of the appeal of it.

I'm afraid to say, because I don't like things that are easy, but that is.

Tim Parkin (42:42.366)
It's just simplifying things, but it's also, I think, transformative when you think about other things that landscape photographers love, like mist and the sea, desert sand dunes, they're all things that change over time or that change the way the landscape looks that you can apply your own thoughts to and your own creativity to.

Joe Cornish (43:04.803)
That's true. And snow landscape is constantly changing because of the wind and the snow falling or melting or whatever it may be. So it's always very, very temporary. And it is transformative, as you say. So it tends to amplify the differences in the lighting and the effect of play. So ice and the ultimate transfiguring or transforming subjects is ice because it is literally always changing. And that's a no.

piece of ice you photograph it one moment and within a few minutes it will either melt it or require more snow or whatever it may be. So there's this wonderful kind of power and dynamic power to it.

Tim Parkin (43:46.078)
I've got another question for me and me regarding, it's for Lizzie, but it's pretty applicable to both of you. As a fellow cross-country skier, he's curious what photo gear Lizzie typically uses on our ski tours, whether you use your normal gear or choose a lighter weight gear, especially when you're doing multiple days out in the landscape. And I know, Joe, you've camped out in the landscape in the snow before, and Lizzie has as well. So Lizzie, how do you...

change your gear or adapt it to multi-day trips in snow.

Lizzie Shepherd (44:20.23)
Yeah, well there was a time when I was still using SLRs which were typically that much bigger and heavier. I did have a smaller QG You know the crop sensor sort of ones just we're talking some years ago now and I did typically I would take those with me but My problem with and I know Joe uses all sorts of different systems my problem with using more than one system is my brain can't

can't cope with having to flip between the two and I start reaching for things that aren't there on the different cameras and so on. So since I moved to Sony, which was ideally the best of both worlds, which was I think 2016, I have just been using Sony full frame on various iterations of the A7R with admittedly quite a few different lenses because although there were quite a few changes, sorry.

quite a few lenses to start with. A lot of them were either not that great or very heavy or so on. So I've kind of evolved a bit over time, but like saying in fell bud last year, I mean, it was only a day at a time, but you were going uphill. So it didn't, and a lot of safety gear to carry as well. So I just had the Sony with the 20 to 70 attach, which is really pretty light. And I would have liked to take my 70 to 200, but it was gonna add over another kilo on.

I just kept that for when we were on the boat because, you know, to be honest, at the time, because it wasn't a photography trip, it was a skiing trip, and you didn't want to keep people waiting all the time. You know, I knew my options were a bit limited, so faffing around, changing lenses and so on probably wasn't going to be ideal. But generally speaking, you know, I'll if I've got something a bit lighter weight telephoto, I'll have that with me as well. And just as to the utility, wider angle to slightly telezoom.

but if I could only have one it would be that one and I don't typically take a tripod either. I did when we did the King's Trail which was Huck to Hutt I had a tripod with me but I think I was probably only using that during the sort of early morning and late evening when we were actually at the Hutt probably not I don't remember for sure but I probably didn't during the day when we were skiing.

Joe Cornish (46:43.403)
Wow, now I'm just trying to visualize Lizzie moving through the snow and you know just popping a camera and taking these brilliant pictures so easily it's just infuriating to be honest. That's great and I mean I think of course the most important thing is that you enjoy your photography and it's really nice that you can incorporate. You've made some amazing photographs from your ski tours.

It just seems extraordinary to me they weren't dedicated photography to it. So you're able to make such good pictures when you're just out with Rob and Co.

Lizzie Shepherd (47:11.476)
Well I am lucky to have a... Yeah well Rob, it's normally just Rob and luckily he's quite patient.

Joe Cornish (47:19.832)
Well, yeah, in my case, I wish I could say I've done ski touring, I've done lots of walking through snow, often for long distances, but I would like to have been on skis but haven't been able to cope. I've often carried over 20 kilos, went out, you know, camping out overnight in those situations. And I'm afraid I carry on much as I have done before. I might sacrifice a lens or two.

when I was shooting with five by four, probably would go from maybe five or six lenses down to three. Today, the funny thing is I'm still carrying just as much weight. I'm not quite sure why that is. I guess I feel that, you know, while I can, then I should. So I don't think it's a feeling of, you know, wanting to suffer particularly. I don't mind carrying the weight really. It's, but, and you know, the justification is if you move through the landscape, you eat.

at least some of your pack, not literally, but so, you know, the load gets heavier, it gets lighter as you go along, which is really, I mean, at the moment, I if I'm doing a multi day, I have, I have gone out recently with an alpha and phase one with a 40 and a 70 millimeter lens, which might to kind of, you know, wide angle and a standard and maybe a Sony

with a 90 millimeter as well. So you get this, it's a wide angle, standard and longer lens. And that works fine for me, I find. I mean, I'm a great believer in restrictions and I sometimes think it's, you know, having too much choice. Oh, it's nice to have choices, but also it's creatively, it's quite challenging to do it all with one lens. So why not? But I do take a tripod mainly because I just, I don't know.

I love using dry boy, I don't know if I could cope without.

Tim Parkin (49:16.964)
That's processing isn't it? You get used to the way of working and refining pictures.

Lizzie Shepherd (49:23.882)
Yeah, I mean, I love both ways of working, to be honest, but it's just not really practical for the non-dedicated photography stuff as a general rule to have, because I just know that I've got to kind of pick and choose my times.

Tim Parkin (49:40.95)
Well, that's going to be one probably last question for the day, which is about composition and mood. Sven Tegelmo has asked, can you ask Lizzie about her take on mood versus composition? And also Ian Meads has asked about how you compose your images, about deliberation or intuition. And what are the composition skills innate or do you have to spend a lot of time thinking about composition in the field and adjusting, etc. I think you get the idea of what the question.

is about. What's your take, especially when you're moving along in the landscape when it's not a dedicated trip? So the different modes.

Lizzie Shepherd (50:19.426)
Yeah.

Well, I mean that certainly for the for that's a situation, you know, it had that just really isn't the opportunity to fast. So you have to you have to kind of see quickly and I'd say and it can be quite annoying because you know, particularly for cross country skiing, you're in a rhythm and you have to be I'm looking around also have to watch out don't suddenly fall over because you just sort of catch something or whatever.

Yeah, in that situation is very much about just sort of instinct. But you know, it's an instinct that's obviously been developed over time from kind of working hard at it, you know, this is a time, you know, about, well, probably over 10 years ago now, when I kind of felt I really struggled to maybe see some of the less obvious scenes and I just kind of kind of made myself see better if you see what I mean. I don't know. I just sort of open my eyes. It sounds simple, but.

I think it is if you just, if there's a willingness to look, and that is, as I said, one of the things I love about photography is it does let you do that. But there will be other times when, you know, you're somewhere where you kind of think there must be a picture here, but it isn't just jumping out at you. And obviously then you are gonna spend a lot more time deliberating, or sometimes there's that one where you kind of see something that you think there must be a picture here and you'll spend ages trying to get it to balance out.

Quite often I get back at what Earth would be trying to do, but very occasionally it might work out as well. But yes, and I mean, I know I've been seeing Sven ask, because he mentioned it when I posted something about the talk that I do, which is getting close to retiring now on mood versus composition. And in that respect, just generally, it's kind of more about the fact that quite often there are several compositions that might be equally valid, but depending which of the two,

Joe Cornish (52:07.273)
Thank you.

Lizzie Shepherd (52:15.546)
one you opt for, it's the fact that can create a very different feel of image. And, you know, it's also, I guess, about those compromises that you perhaps have to make to create the sort of image you want to create, to show, particularly, I think, if you're wanting to be true to the landscape that you're photographing and you want to show what it's like or what it means to you, however you like to look at it. I think you, you know, how you compose it will have a massive

impact on getting across what you see in it and how you feel about it. And if that means kind of including funny things that maybe people wouldn't always include, then that's fine if that's how you see it. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, I know you heard a sort of earlier version of that talk many years ago, but it's about just, to me, it's about just trying to be true to what it is you're trying to portray.

Hopefully that sort of answers it.

Tim Parkin (53:17.338)
Yeah, and is there an idea of allowing imperfections in a picture to try and create some mood that you're after, or trying to fine tune it so there are no imperfections? Does it matter to you if they're all?

Lizzie Shepherd (53:29.59)
Yeah, no, I mean, it depends what you call an imperfection, I guess. Because I mean, I have, I've just got, I've just got weird things that I don't like, including in pictures, like I don't, I, if I can possibly avoid a path, I will avoid a path. And I know that they work really well in pictures, but I just don't like them in my pictures. Now that is just me, if you see what I mean, that's just, so it's not really an imperfection, is it? But it just depends. I mean, I think

Tim Parkin (53:34.875)
Um, yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (53:59.446)
Certainly, you know, chaotic woodlands, be they in Yorkshire, and as you both know that they are pretty chaotic here, or the area we go to in northern Greece, where it's just crazy, massive color and textures and so on. I mean, you can't photograph that truly without there being, in a sense, imperfections, because it is, it's just mad. But that, to me, is what I love about it. So I don't want to exclude those things. And, you know, it won't be for everyone, but, you know, I think it...

Tim Parkin (54:15.91)
Yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (54:28.999)
it is important to be true to what is your photographing. But yeah, I think, as I say, it just depends what, what impacts

Tim Parkin (54:37.91)
Yeah, this.

There's a sort of, I won't say a fashion for it, I think in a lot of photographers, this idea that things, compositions have to be perfect and they'll go around removing distractions from the edge of the frame, whereas other photographers say, well, it doesn't matter as much. And to be honest, having judged a lot of competitions, these sorts of distractions that people talk about aren't relevant when you're assessing whether a picture is good or not. And I think you'd agree with that, would you Joe?

Joe Cornish (55:08.379)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, I think the essence of everything that Lizzie said made perfect sense to me. But you know, finally, I just want to say that a lot of it is emphasis. So your personal decision making that composition is what you want to emphasize. But yes, there's often many valid versions of composition within a single space.

And I was fascinated to hear about your take on paths and routes through a picture and trying to avoid them because clearly that is a device that many people use naturally because it's a sort of spatial thing. But yeah, it's good to have that individuality to not want to include that because maybe you don't actually want to show, you don't want to show the way into the picture. Maybe there's something, you know, sort of a...

hidden or mysterious that you want to preserve. And so that's an aspect of emphasis. One of the things that, you know, we could talk a tiny bit more about before we finish, I think is mood and what that actually means. Well, I don't know if this is the same for you guys, but I use my iPhone for partly for visualization and making notes and stuff. So I go along and quite often, infuriating me, the iPhone picture is the best one. You know, I get the phase one out and take 150 megapixel.

composition and everything's nice and sharp, but it doesn't look as good. Why? Because the mood has changed since the original idea happened. And I've faffed around too long. It might be as little as five minutes or it might be half an hour. And during that faffing, the weather has changed, the clouds have changed, the atmosphere has changed, the rain has moved on or arrived or whatever. And all of those changes mean that what actually sparked the original vision or concept.

has no longer valid. And that's just one of the ongoing frustrations, if you like, of photography, but it's kind of one of the things that keeps you going as well, because you want to make sure you learn to understand that. And sometimes the translations from your iPhone to the face are actually quite good, but sometimes they aren't. And it's just remembering and recognizing that mood is such an important component of what we do.

Joe Cornish (57:33.263)
But I don't know that any of us could really describe it or formulate it or pack it into a box. It's a mysterious combination of synthesis of different aspects of form, the structure of the composition, but in particular the quality of light and how that interacts with the elements of the composition that you've made. So.

Tim Parkin (57:52.578)
recognize, can't we? Quite quickly but it's difficult too.

Joe Cornish (57:56.527)
It's difficult to say. And it's also because your mind becomes familiar with the scene very quickly and it adapts. So as the changes happen, you don't notice them so much. And that can be problematic in a way as well. And finally, Tim, I just have to mention this imperfection thing. I mean, personally, an old concept of a perfect landscape is ludicrous. That the whole, in a way for me, the whole point of life is that...

I mean, literally, evolution requires imperfection. If you think of perfection as consistently repeating something endlessly, you know, what makes evolution happen is genetic variation, if you will, you know, the so-called imperfections that essentially allows us to metamorphose, to adapt to different niches in...

you know, in the environment. And so in a sense, perfection is antithetical to life itself. So I genuinely see imperfection as a very, very important part of what we do, preserving it, imperfection that is.

Tim Parkin (59:10.354)
Yeah. What a good finish, good way to finish. Well, that's the end of episode two. So I'd like to say thank you very much to Lizzie Shepherd and to Joe Cornish. Really enjoyed that. And we actually got through all the questions. It was fantastic. Thank you. Thank you very much. And we'll put some of your details on the website when we publish it. And we'll leave it there until the next episode.

Lizzie Shepherd (59:15.19)
Yeah.

Lizzie Shepherd (59:22.753)
Gotcha?

Lizzie Shepherd (59:29.514)
I don't know. Yeah.

Joe Cornish (59:31.464)
I'll talk to you.

Tim Parkin (59:40.642)
Goodbye.

Lizzie Shepherd (59:42.538)
Thank you. Bye bye.