On Landscape - Any Questions Private

Tim Parkin (00:02.248)
Hello and welcome to On Landscape Any Questions, where me and one of our regular hosts, Joe Cornish, are interviewing David Southern. Hi, David.

david southern (00:13.801)
Hello and thank you for inviting me to the conversation this evening.

Tim Parkin (00:18.15)
No, really looking forward to chatting with you. And we've seen some of your photography in the Natural Landscape Awards. And we've had you on landscape a few times previously, I think, as well, one with a local project. And that was when you were living in Surrey. You don't live in Surrey anymore.

Joe Cornish (00:18.264)
Hi David.

david southern (00:34.201)
No, I've now been living in Northumberland for seven years in October and it's really flown by, it really has and it's lovely to smell and hear the ocean every morning.

Tim Parkin (00:50.962)
They were different environment than Surrey or the world where you're from.

david southern (00:56.581)
Yeah, very much so. Closer to the Whirl because I was surrounded by seawater on three sides of the Whirl, of course, but being in a landlocked county. mean, Surrey is a beautiful county. It's the most wooded county in the UK. the Surrey Hills are a beautiful part of England, but I missed the sea when I lived there.

Tim Parkin (01:17.854)
Yeah, well I should probably ask a little bit about your background so we can introduce you to some of the people who may not know as much around you. How did you get into photography and end up where you are now? There's a brief.

david southern (01:31.696)
I'll keep it brief. So I first got into photography at university very, very long time ago. And I did a semester on astrophotography. So my first films that I ever processed and printed were pictures of the surface of the moon, which is great. I wish I still had some of those prints around, unfortunately they were lost over the course of time.

Tim Parkin (01:54.792)
How cool.

david southern (02:00.944)
So then I didn't have a camera for a while after that, through, you know, I was a student and I went abroad for a couple of years, unfortunately, in South America and I didn't have a camera with me, which is unfortunate. I was taking mental little snapshots to retain forever in my mind's eye. And then I got a secondhand Pentax.

K-1000 if anyone can remember those. Really lovely manual basic SLR with a 50mm, nifty 50 lens and then the rest is history. But when I moved to Northumberland I was able to devote all my time to photography rather than just be able to fit it in around a...

Tim Parkin (02:31.104)
fantastic lenses

Joe Cornish (02:31.32)
yeah.

david southern (02:54.358)
full-time job in IT working for a conservation organisation.

Tim Parkin (02:58.046)
Yeah, that's the World Wildlife Foundation, isn't it?

david southern (03:00.58)
World Wildlife Fund, yeah, or World Wide Fund for Nature. As it changed its branding back in the 80s, but everyone still calls it the World Wildlife Fund.

Tim Parkin (03:11.678)
Yeah, yeah. did that play a part in your photography at the time? I would attempt to do more wildlife than landscape.

david southern (03:19.02)
Yeah, I mean my main role was in IT, I was director of IT, but I did manage to get out to some of the projects that WWF worked on around the world and I always took the opportunity to record how those projects were and give those images over to the organisation to use as part of their fundraising and marketing material. So I kind of combined the two, I was a bit of a frustrated

photographer like a lot of people I think who work in an office based role. Yeah, I'd like to work along the River Way every morning to WWF headquarters with a camera snapping misty shots of the River Way to get kind of my photography fixing before the before a day in the office. Which brings you right back to your first point about living in Surrey and doing an exhibition in the Surrey Hills.

Tim Parkin (04:16.242)
Yeah. So, well, we've got a few questions off people. I think some people you know and a few might not. I'm going to start with one from Len Thompson, who asked about your, spotted on one of our old articles about you having a biology background. And was mentioning, that, was that anything to do with your interest in?

in the seaweed and projects around landscape.

david southern (04:49.295)
Yeah, very much so. You know, got interested in, my mother particularly was very interested in nature and really used to nurture that love of the outside world and nature within the family. And I remember seeing, I was doing my own levels, I remember David Attenborough's Life on Earth came out and from then on I had to

be involved in something in the natural world from then on. So hence a degree in biology. And I actually specialized in paleobotany, which I loved. I wanted to be a paleobotanist. But you know, in that time there weren't many outlets to earn a living as a paleobotanist. But certainly that connection has been with me throughout my life. So I worked in IT for a bank. But when a role came up,

work for WWF that kind of married my professional work and my passion to put something back into the natural world as well through working for a conservation organisation.

Tim Parkin (06:00.232)
wonder how many people Attenborough has actually inspired in terms of photography and landscape. I know it's definitely those programs inspired me. Yeah, I'm keen on seeing these latest.

Joe Cornish (06:06.958)
You know, you couldn't put a figure on it, that's for sure. I've got a quick question, Tim, while you're looking for another question for David, because I was really interested. Well, a couple of things. seem to be, you know, World Wildlife Fund, what a fantastic opportunity, first and foremost, to, you know, be absolutely right at the heart of the kind of conservation movement. But we tend to associate the

WWF, particularly with animals and wild animals and, you know, whether it's, whether it's actually the conservation work or the photography. Um, and, uh, and so I was intrigued by the fact that if we look at your work now and your recent interviews and your website, the emphasis is 100 % really on, uh, the details of nature. I hope that's not an oversimplification, but I'm struck by how you're

david southern (06:35.79)
.

Joe Cornish (07:02.254)
You obviously love pattern and texture and color. And these are the kind of immediately the dominant characteristics of your work. And you use those so well to make images that are very, very involving, very connecting, I think. But yeah, they seem to be quite sort of...

david southern (07:04.845)
Thanks.

Joe Cornish (07:24.552)
at odds with the idea of wildlife anyway, not at odds, but at least different. And I was wondering if you'd ever done wildlife photography or whether that was something that appealed or whether actually not really, it's just something that you kind of happened to have that period of your career connected to.

david southern (07:33.773)
It is something that I'm very much interested in and I actually do quite a lot of bird photography. know the sea birds are breeding on the coast of Northumberland at the moment so I'll do it. But I've not really had that many opportunities to get

to really immerse myself in wildlife photography. I think these days, particularly if you want to stand out in the field of wildlife photography, you need to a number of weeks in the field at foreign exotic locations a lot of the time as well, or have very specialism technically like underwater photography.

It is something that I would like to probably get more and more involved with if the opportunity should arise and they probably will. I've explored the Northumberland coast in a lot of detail but I still want to stretch my feet a bit further as well.

Joe Cornish (08:49.856)
It's interesting having a fair number of wildlife photographers as friends and colleagues. You know, I find it fascinating that there were very significant differences in approach, in emphasis, and yet, of course, we can always learn from each other.

which I think is really, you know, really nice aspect of that kind of collaboration, where there's a different emphasis. I actually work with what probably would have been an ex colleague of yours if you'd been there early enough, Mark Calwarding, quite a lot. yeah, just...

david southern (09:21.634)
Mm.

Joe Cornish (09:25.518)
apart from the, you know, just the ongoing conversations that we have about natural world. I just learned so much about animals in particular and ecosystems and habitat. And at the same time, I think that, you know, he's probably learned little bit from me about composition and lighting and ideas that are connected with art and artistic.

david southern (09:39.244)
Thank you.

Joe Cornish (09:52.014)
needs and expectations and how photography benefits greatly from some kind of art, artistic foundation. But nevertheless, I think probably I've learned more from him actually in regard to how the animal behavior and

expression and body language actually influences composition, which is a whole lot of conversation by the way, but I shouldn't get off off topic yet because this is about you and and Tim you probably got more questions there.

Tim Parkin (10:26.942)
I think that I think it's interesting because it is something about wildlife photographers who have a different priority in terms of how they're photographing things and I don't see them many wildlife photographers who prioritize composition, pattern and form which is really interesting you know see most of them especially when I see the wildlife photographer of the year take part in the competition there.

the animal behavior or the portraits of them or the rarity of them or the rarity of context is always a priority. And the actual composition is important, but I don't think it's as important. And if you have a picture that's just about composition and form, quite often it doesn't do as well, which is...

a little bit annoying sometimes because sometimes there are absolutely amazing pictures that don't make it because they're of typically less rare species.

david southern (11:26.536)
Yeah and I think people are always attracted to what we might call the charismatic megafauna images and I admire those true native photographers that have such a dedication where they are spending you know weeks or months and months in the field you know to get a snow leopard.

a fleeting glimpse for a few seconds of a snow leopard. I think to wildlife photography, and this might sound a little controversial, say, I think in this day and age of such capable digital equipment that it's fairly, it's not as difficult as it used to be to get a sharp, well exposed

portrait of a puffin. It may have been a long time ago, especially working with 36 frames in your camera. I was on the Farn Islands a couple of weeks ago, Farn Islands off to the north east of England, which is a famous seabird breeding site. And it was a landing trip and there were a couple of people next to me and this puffin landed just doing what puffins do in the spring. And they were machine gunning this bird.

at 12 frames a second for about five minutes. And I thought to myself, know, what are these guys doing about understanding the behavior of this animal? You know, what are they doing to really get into, to connect that animal with the audience? Then they probably had 500 shots and they were probably all technically well capable shots. But I thought, you know,

Tim Parkin (13:07.176)
the reasonable put.

david southern (13:11.568)
I wouldn't call those people necessarily wildlife photographers. In the same way I would some of the people who go out looking at polar bears on the ice caps, snow leopards, sea turtles in the migrating season and all those sorts of things.

Tim Parkin (13:30.59)
context becomes really important. And I think that's why I really enjoyed your photographs of the seaweeds that did so well in the Natural Landscape Photographer Awards there. The fact that it wasn't just aesthetics of it, there was an aspect of observation of categories of the plants and what they were as well as just

david southern (13:32.415)
Mm.

Joe Cornish (13:34.062)
It does work.

Tim Parkin (13:59.204)
the designs they were producing. And how did the seaweed images all start?

david southern (14:07.621)
I did a coastal foraging course and was eating the subject matter and decided that I might be off photographing it. But I've kind of always been interested in, you know, the Kelp Forest is from a seaweed point of view. find the Kelp Forest is fairly most obvious subject because they are beautiful golden bronzy fronds and...

iridescent stripes. And yet the more you learn about the lesser seaweeds, know, the racks which we all overlook or on the upper shore that look desiccated and grey for most of the day until the tides wash over them. But the more you learn about their biology, the more fascinating they become. And the more I'm inspired to go and try to

capture their morphology and their plant behavior, you know, the behavior, they're not actually plants, but I would call them plants for the moment, you know, because they have amazing complex organisms, they really are. And that's the sort of thing that enthuses me. I've often been on the beach, putting my camera, my macro lens on a small piece of living seaweed. And incidentally, the living seaweeds look very different from photographing dead seaweeds. It's very interesting.

And I've been photographing some seaweeds on the beach and people have come up and say, you know, what have you found? I can't explain. What have I found? The whole world.

Joe Cornish (15:42.766)
By the way, think the way that you've managed to bring those photos to life in addition to the pictures themselves, which are wonderful, with the captions is really important. And to ensure that for those of us who are interested in natural world to find out more about them through your words really, really helps, I think.

Just saying that as an observer of nature myself, I always find that initially it's usually just a visual fascination with something, be it a rock, a plant or an animal that draws you in. And then as you find out more and you can then share that with others, I think you can help to expand that enthusiasm and appreciation for what you're looking at, which is great, even though the initial kind of hook is...

david southern (16:21.352)
Cool.

Joe Cornish (16:38.174)
is a like a nice melody. It's something that looks lovely, but finding out more is just so helpful, I think, in enriching your experience of nature.

Tim Parkin (16:48.008)
think that changes how you make the pictures of them as well because you can't help but see them differently at that point in time once you've found out things.

david southern (16:50.728)
Thank you.

Joe Cornish (16:52.27)
does. Yeah, it does. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it's really, I mean, you could say the same about the rocks and that you photographed so brilliantly as well. You know, which many of which are, of course, tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of years old. And, you know, seen, you know, decade, well, not decades, but but eons go by and they've been subjected to these different forces and so on. And it just is quite the

provocation for the imagination. But initially it's the visual beauty of the subject that gets you involved. One thing I just sort of actually, which I found particularly fascinating with the seaweed images is that they often require a little bit of, at least some sunlight to bring them to life. Whereas so many textural subjects, it's the opposite, isn't it? It's a softer light. So be interested to hear your thoughts on lighting with these subjects.

david southern (17:46.508)
Well, I found out over the last couple of years there is a way because the seaweeds look great in bright sunlight, but they're so reflective. It's so difficult to control from an exposure point of view and from an aesthetic point of view as well. So there are certain techniques that I've sort of honed, if you like, over the last two or three years of going out to the same patches of seaweeds because they do change all the time.

not just over the seasons, but they change from tide to tide almost. So for example, if I want to take a picture of the racks, I need a bright, sunlit day and I need to find a north facing rock with some really good living specimens, because if they're not picking up direct sunlight, you can control all the reflections really well. And yet they are still picking up some of the beautiful colours from the sky. So they will look

really blue and almost iridescent and yet you can still control, as I say, all the light areas and the dark areas as well. with the kelp and the thongweed as well, they're best when they're actually under a layer of water, otherwise they just reflect the sky and everything that's around them. So you need to still see.

and a gentle swell, bright sunlight, clarity of water, a bunch of conditions that you know rarely come together to be quite honest and basically a spring tide. So this last few weeks would have been ideal but we've not had good sea conditions with with northerly

Joe Cornish (19:29.228)
and the very low side as well, right?

david southern (19:43.623)
winds coming in, the sea's been too choppy really, the swell's been too high, there's too much spew and seafoam around and things so you're really subject to the conditions and the more I've photographed them the more I understand which conditions I want to capture them in a certain way.

Tim Parkin (20:07.454)
This is an interesting one about persistence, isn't it? And understanding an area because you can turn up in an area and take photographs. And quite often you're taking a single possibility for an area or a moment or a subject. But as you spend more time, you start to see different aspects and learn about them. It's interesting that.

david southern (20:28.807)
The opportunities evolve as well because it's not a case of just finding these peak conditions. An example was early last spring, there's a very deep channel of kelp, which is one of my favourite little areas to photograph, and the water was crystal clear last spring. Now, this year, because the conditions, the water is very murky, it's very turbid.

the turbidity is very high. So I'm kind of adapting to use those conditions to get a different type of image that comes through, although I'm in exactly the same place, exactly the same time of the year.

Tim Parkin (21:13.16)
Like a water fog.

Joe Cornish (21:13.516)
Yeah, that's fascinating. And in a way, it's very parallel, I think, to other types of landscape photography where there are opportunities. Tim and I were chatting earlier about the challenges of working in bright sunlight, which is usually quite a nightmare when it goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks as we've had. But it actually is surprising. You can still take pictures. It's just being adaptable. I suppose to some extent, hope.

improving your field skills to think differently about the opportunities that do arrive arise without, you know, battling too hard against those incredible glinty bright highlights that are a constant nightmare really, especially with dealing with plant matter where the little leaves and probably I imagine seaweed too can act like a direct mirror of the sun. And it's really a bit of a problem.

I was wondering if you ever used a polarizer actually because that's something I've found I've had to use quite a bit recently in more conventional landscape photography.

david southern (22:18.072)
Yeah, the polarizer's

generally on the lens for the seaweed pictures, it's fairly indispensable. Occasionally I take it off and use the reflections of the water as part of the composition as well. So it's about adapting and you get, you know, you get this, for example, if the seaweed is just beneath the surface of the water and we have a few ripples reflecting in the sun, you get this almost multi-layer effect, which can be really quite attractive as well. So it's the default.

lens to be quite honest, default filter, a polarizer, but yeah sometimes just taking it off can make such a difference as well in terms of the colour and the way the image looks in terms of layers as well.

Joe Cornish (23:09.622)
It's funny how often when landscape photographers are working, I was out with my camera yesterday and you find you're just hoping for just the right amount of cloud, not too much, not too, it's like the Goldilocks amount of cloud, it just softens the sun a little bit, but not so it goes dead flat overcast necessarily. And I'm sure it's the same often with these little details as well, just to make a picture work, it's that fine.

a sort of halfway house. And so actually, I'm not putting words into your mouth, David, here, I just, but I imagine that there must be parallels there as well. And that light is just so critical to make these pictures work.

david southern (23:51.024)
Absolutely, I think, you know, I would prefer a dull, overcast, damp day, particularly to take pictures of rocks. You know, that's when the colours really bounce out. It would be very difficult to do any photography of the geology.

I find at the moment because all the colours are just washed out in these really, really bright skies. So once we've a really damp overcast day and everyone is complaining about it's so grey and horrible, that's manna from heaven in terms of photography of the geology.

Joe Cornish (24:24.386)
but.

Yeah, that's so funny, isn't it? Tim, you must have struggled too. imagine in recent weeks it's been that sunny, hasn't it?

Tim Parkin (24:28.284)
interesting.

Tim Parkin (24:35.09)
gone out climbing all the rocks dry yeah big big long big long pictures from the tops of hills

Joe Cornish (24:37.71)
Good for photography. It's so funny. It is so funny how everyone's saying, you must have been marvelous, you know, enjoying this weather. photographers are never happy.

Tim Parkin (24:48.157)
I'm out.

Especially the intensity of the greens now, all the bracken is just rising as well everywhere. I was interested, do you use any light modifiers or attempted to use large umbrellas or reflectors or anything?

Joe Cornish (24:57.645)
Yeah.

Joe Cornish (25:02.998)
Reflectors, diffusers, nope.

david southern (25:06.395)
No, it's often windy where I am so trying to control a camera, often a tripod and an umbrella, I think I'd end up in the bottom of the sea or a rock pool which has happened before.

Tim Parkin (25:07.111)
No.

Tim Parkin (25:21.778)
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, but talking about understanding the subject, I'm interested in your approach to geology, noticing you have a geological map on your wall behind you. Do you take the same interest in the geological history of areas that you're photographing?

david southern (25:33.78)
well, well spotted as well.

david southern (25:41.379)
I do, yeah, very much so. And I've got places where I will be visiting based on that map behind me there. And I was up in the west of Scotland last autumn and got some really different shots as well. And was out in Ireland and Donegal last year as well. the rock is predominantly Gneiss, I think, out there. it was totally, it's a new...

It's like going to a new country to photograph a new country. Some people say they're just rocks, but for me it's just a whole new playground.

Tim Parkin (26:19.314)
They define the landscape, don't they, really? That's why the west coast of Scotland is so interesting in many ways.

david southern (26:21.464)
Mm.

Joe Cornish (26:24.686)
But also, think that if you look at look at that map behind David, you can see that the I mean, that's an in fairness, because it's relatively what large scale small scale, I never know which it is. But anyway, one to a couple of million or something. There's not going to be that much detail. But even even with that map, you can see the extraordinary range of rocks that we have in the UK. You know, and we it's pretty hard to imagine too many other places in the world that have quite the same blend of

of all of the three primary rock types in such a small area. And often they're combined, know, metamorphic and igneous and sedimentary all in the same zone. And even in Northumberland where you think Northumberland, blind me, it's not particularly green cliffs or anything like that there, but my goodness, the igneous outcrops and there's a contact metamorphic areas around that. I think of colonos in particular and...

david southern (26:58.211)
Thank you.

Joe Cornish (27:21.43)
around Holy Island, absolutely fantastic. And then you have that beautiful sedimentary rock that you've been photographing a little bit further north, right on the Scottish border, which I think some of us are quite familiar with. And it's a fabulous opportunity and you're really making great use of it, I think.

Tim Parkin (27:21.438)
and

Tim Parkin (27:37.946)
Tell us about

david southern (27:38.087)
Thank you. And of course we do have the coal seams that naturally occur and are exposed under North Sea. And with certain sea conditions they come in as tiny little fragments on the sand and you've got these wonderful polka dot art.

Tim Parkin (27:41.842)
Yes.

david southern (27:54.083)
It's created by an ebb tide or something as well. So we've got that to add, of course. And the Cheviots used to be volcanoes at one point, so you've still got all the magnet shapes around certain parts of the coast as well. Yeah, as you say, it's a sort of it's it's such a diversity. You just got to look a little bit closer. It's one of the things I say to people, you know, I take people out on workshops on the coast and I say this is where we're photographing today and you can see the faces drop a little bit.

what's here? I said, well, let's look a little bit closer. You know, and 12 hours later, I'm getting hungry and they're all still really keen to carry on.

Joe Cornish (28:33.677)
Yeah, it's interesting,

Tim Parkin (28:33.726)
Tell us a little bit about the Beric project that you were, of the sandstone. Is it Beric? It's somewhere on the...

david southern (28:41.568)
Yeah, there's place called Spittle, is just south of Berwick upon Tweed. That's well known and well photographed and changes all the time. So I think at the moment it's mostly covered in sand, but give us a couple of winter storms and we'll have a couple of tennis court size areas exposed. But to be honest, a lot of the sandstone and features that are photographed are actually a bit further south.

and a lot of them only appear for a very short space of time. And the ones that do appear and they get and they've been covered with sand and seaweed and rocks and pebbles for long time, when they're first uncovered, they're beautiful shapes and they're beautiful colours, two or three days exposed and they start to get covered in algae. So you've got to be kind of quick and you know it pays to be

Tim Parkin (29:16.336)
interest.

david southern (29:39.157)
to be persistent and go out most days. I go out most days, but sometimes the camera doesn't come out of the bag, to be quite honest. And then a piece of sandstone will be exposed. I think I've not seen that before. That's an amazing shape or two days later you go back and it's completely covered again. There are bits of the co-star photograph that were uncovered two or three years ago and I've only ever seen them uncovered once in that time. It might be another three or four years before they're uncovered again.

And it goes the same with some of the shipwrecks we see on the beaches as well.

Joe Cornish (30:12.846)
That's really fascinating actually, because what you've described is something that is common around the coast of the UK. And it's a real reminder that sand is a primary agent of erosion. And the fact that when rocks are exposed for a significant period of time, they pick up algae quite quickly. And I think that is happening more with climate change, by the way. I you may disagree, David, but that's been my experience. And yet, fortunately for photographers,

They'll come a day when the sand will blow all the, sorry, the storms will blow all the sand back in and then there would be a period where they're covered up and the algae will die back and then yeah, the cycle repeats itself. And also just the storm action smooths off the surfaces so well too, doesn't it? So while the rocks may disappear for significant periods, it also contributes to the visual beauty. Without the sand, you wouldn't have that.

That was the point really.

david southern (31:14.06)
No, wouldn't. And I totally agree with you that

I've seen climate change happening in a very short time period of the seven years I've been here as well. Certainly the kelp is moving further north, generally across the whole of the UK, because the water is warm. And there's a great barrier against coastal erosion in the kelp as well, if the forests disappear, we will see more sand dunes disappear at the same time as well.

and a lot more sandstone appearing and then being covered up again, a lot more longshore drift and all those sort of actions on the coast as well. Seaweed is very important biologically as we all know. Well, we know, but I don't think that many people understand how important biologically seaweed is.

Joe Cornish (32:05.742)
That's a huge carbon sink too, right? So those kelp forests are really important, the ones that grow naturally. I mean, maybe they could be cultivated more. I mean, that's, this is so many controversial possibilities, aren't there, in trying to sequester carbon. And I've never realized that's not really a photographic conversation, but it's still an interesting one to have.

david southern (32:08.0)
Mm.

Tim Parkin (32:23.357)
there any other

There is kelp farming near us up here. They've been a few places where they hand harvest kelp for I think it's they burn it to try and release some I'm not really sure what the chemicals are fertilized as well. Yeah luckily I should probably do some of the questions we've got here Kai Thompson asks a question

Joe Cornish (32:38.742)
In Loughlinny, Tim?

Mm.

Tim Parkin (32:54.184)
How do you keep believing in your work when you get not much or very little recognition for it? that's, it's an inevitable question in the era of social media where so many things get exposure and it seems like nobody's looking at your own work.

david southern (33:12.057)
One of the things I always say to people when I'm out is I always ask them who they're taking photographs for. know, are they taking photographs of the popular social media and they might have this big wow factor that soon drifts off? Are they taking images to

impress a judge where they might be a little conservative and not take any risks from a creative point of view, so nothing could be criticised, you know, they might be taking pictures for a brief or a project or something. So I always ask people who they take pictures for. I take pictures for myself and if other people like them, I think that's great. We all take pictures because, you know, we want to.

I don't suppose impress people, we want our art to be recognised. I'd like to think so as well. But predominantly I take pictures for myself and I will see something and photograph it and it excites me. But it might be highly unlikely that it excites the next person too as well. if my images aren't popular, so be it. I enter competitions because

Tim Parkin (34:07.55)
to shut.

david southern (34:31.835)
and if they do well there it gives some kind of validation I think that actually it might be on the right path, I might be doing the right thing but mostly I'll go out and find things that please me from an aesthetic point of view.

Tim Parkin (34:48.434)
You have lost projects then that you think that you've taken for your own interests that you're not really bothered about sharing.

david southern (34:55.077)
Yes, I'm working on a couple of things that, but I'll share them when I think I have sufficient quality in that portfolio to share. It's about keeping a personal standard, if you like. I think the worst thing you can ever do in photography is think that you're really good and everything you take is going to be, is the work of genius. know, it's not, you know...

Tim Parkin (35:10.13)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (35:20.156)
yet there's no reason to improve if you think you could is there?

Joe Cornish (35:26.834)
I was gonna say, actually don't know anybody who thinks like that. Not personally anyway, there may be some people like that, but I think that would, I agree with you, it'd be a bit of a disaster to come to that conclusion. It wouldn't leave you very much to do if you were doing work that was perfect. Part of the old.

Tim Parkin (35:45.862)
Interestingly, with musicians, I know people, I don't know them, but I've seen interviews and things, they are people who think they're really good, are the ones that were successful younger and are resting on their laurels and not doing anything creative anymore.

david southern (35:59.581)
Yeah, and I think it's a bit like almost, you know, like young sports people, young footballers and they get the, they don't take any risks, it's almost coached out of them as well because if you get to a certain level and you know, you're selling images or you're popular and you're doing well, you might think, actually I'm not going to take any more risks because I am where I am and musicians go the same way I think.

Tim Parkin (36:26.174)
This is a Vetriano effect.

Joe Cornish (36:28.558)
So Tim that question Kai's question was it specifically aimed at David in because I'm just I mean I would perceive someone who's been very successful personally so I'm not quite sure what the implication is really

Tim Parkin (36:36.742)
Well, yeah, what's your opinion on that?

Yeah.

Well, I think this is all the definitions of success, isn't it? I know people who are very, very good, who do such good work that they don't get commented on. And I know people who aren't very good, who provoke interest with their photography, either doing things that are odd. You know, can provoke comments in different ways than being good. So engagement is no real...

guarantee that it's because you're doing something good. And I think that's what's lost with a lot of people.

Joe Cornish (37:20.43)
I suppose this is also potentially a bit of a social media question, isn't it? Because somebody doesn't do social media, I feel very out of my depth having a discussion in this field. So not knowing anything about it. I'm wondering if it really matters. I mean, I suppose when you get old enough and gray enough, nobody, you don't really care anyway. But that would be my position.

david southern (37:20.862)
.

Joe Cornish (37:46.658)
But I can appreciate particularly for the younger generation that they clearly can't avoid it, even if they wanted to, because it's the way of the world as it is now. And therefore, they do have to take that into consideration. I also think listening to David's...

david southern (37:48.286)
Okay.

Tim Parkin (37:58.718)
Hmm.

Joe Cornish (38:04.906)
thoughts on it. think it's a really good guide in general that photographing for yourself is ultimately the only thing that will work in the long term anyway, because if you try to please the public, I mean, how on earth are you supposed to know what other people think anyway? You know, and I think it will inevitably leads to a very safe and probably quite formulaic way of seeing

david southern (38:16.158)
.

Tim Parkin (38:32.472)
I think you can in some ways separate out photography into its different parts as well. There's the taking of photography, taking of photographs and being out in the field, which you can do completely for yourself. There's the editing, et cetera, of things which you do for yourself. But then there's also the curation and display of the work, which you can do for other people. So you can actually do the different parts of it selfishly and also then thinking about sharing it with other people.

And the sharing with other people itself can be. A friend of ours, his lecturer at art college said to me, if everybody likes your work, you're doing something seriously wrong. And I always think that's one of the best quotes I've ever heard from somebody. You shouldn't be satisfying everybody. If you're satisfying everybody, then you're doing something lower than common denominator in many ways.

david southern (39:15.005)
You're probably playing very safely.

Tim Parkin (39:27.43)
Yeah, yeah. Whereas if you do something that's bit risky or more interesting, then some people aren't going to like it. And that's great. But you're more likely to get people that really like it.

Joe Cornish (39:38.316)
Yes, fascinating. The whole field, I think, is fascinating in public perception, isn't it? I think there's a view, for example, and he may not have been a photographer, but at least contemporary with some photographers. Vincent van Gogh is widely thought to have been the kind of classic, you know, lone artist in the garret, not caring about anybody else and just doing his own thing.

david southern (39:59.59)
with.

Joe Cornish (40:02.476)
And that's very much a misrepresentation now. He was desperate to sell his pictures. He would have loved to sell them, poor chap. And of course, ironically, the moment he died, his work took off big time. And that really is a tragedy in a way. He wasn't able to see what a difference he made, but he did forge his own path. And that's the important takeaway, I think, from that example, is that he was somebody who believed in what he was doing.

david southern (40:04.508)
Okay.

Joe Cornish (40:31.404)
and persevered, but it didn't stop him wanting to be able to communicate with others. He absolutely did want to. So it's what you're saying to him really. It's rhetorical side is very important. Yeah.

Tim Parkin (40:38.142)
and he had the talent to do stuff that was going to be popular. I've got another question from Lena Bruce, would like to ask David how he decides when to put his camera down and just experience the moment.

david southern (40:55.732)
Sorry Tim, I didn't get any of that at all, I'm afraid you might have a bad line. Did you get that Joe?

Tim Parkin (40:57.402)
Okay Lena Lena Bruce. Yeah, Lena Bruce asks David how you decide when to put the camera down and just experience the moment

Joe Cornish (41:00.494)
No, not a thing.

david southern (41:13.468)
Excellent question. Every time I go out with my camera, I try and experience the moments. I don't just go out and fire, fire, fire and leave. And I think if you try and take in the moments, understand a little bit about the environments that you're in on that day and what the weather feels like and...

just enjoy being, because I enjoy the environment which I mostly photograph, which is the coast, I enjoy just being there. But even if it's a fantastic day and all the elements are fantastic and I've taken and I've run round like a scalded cast, know, taking some, filling my boots full of the images I want to fill, I'll still take some time out, put the camera down.

and enjoy the moment and reflect on the moment. And I always think later on, if I'm writing about it, if I'm writing captions, I want to recall that moment and not just think about, yeah, I was there and taking the pictures. want to know what, you know, was the taste of salt in the air? Were the seabirds loud and active? You know, was it cold? Was it wet? How's the whole feel? And I think there's more to just a photograph than a grab and take.

I like to just, every photo shoot I do, I will put the camera away and get a flask of peppermint tea and something to eat and enjoy the moment.

Tim Parkin (42:50.032)
Is that one of the benefits of being able to go out regularly is being able to recognize when there's something and if there isn't something in front of you straight away then you can sit back and wait for it.

david southern (43:01.241)
Yeah, I went out yesterday and I was just really enjoying the waves. There's quite a lot of energy in the North Sea at the moment. And it wasn't a day for photography for a number of reasons, but, I just sat and really enjoyed the day and the sounds of the birds and the kitty wakes are back and on the coast and that sort of thing. And if some photography would come from it, that would be a bonus, I think. But I think most people who

Photograph Outdoors will echo that comment that they actually like to be in the moments and it's not just about capturing something in a camera.

Joe Cornish (43:43.37)
Agreed.

Tim Parkin (43:48.466)
I've got a question for you in your IT background. I did read that you worked in a threat and response management sense in some of your IT work. And I'm interested in your opinion on AI and if you've thought about it much at all.

david southern (44:07.29)
Yeah, I did work in IT security actually, all these cyber attacks and things fascinate me, but I'm not going to start on that one at all. Yeah, I do think about a bit about AI and I noticed I went into some popular online photo competition app today and I noticed there's a lot of

Lots of writers at the beginning to say these images were not taken through AI and no enhancement was taken through AI and all the rest of it. it's obviously seen by a threat in the industry. Personally, I...

I think it's a bit like I've seen AI writing and I can tell a mile away that it's been written by a computer than I can by written with somebody who's talking from their heart, you know, by a real human. So AI photography, don't think it's, is it a threat? mean, we, people still photographed monochrome, black and white, you know, colour photography didn't, people still pick up a paintbrush.

and paint, photography didn't get rid of painting, so I think it will morph, I think it will go on a bit. Electronic music hasn't killed the orchestra, so it will change and adapt. I don't think it's a threat to what we do and what we love.

Tim Parkin (45:42.992)
I hope it allows people to...

Joe Cornish (45:44.802)
That's good to know. But I agree with that. I mean, also, whenever I think about this question, I'm finding myself thinking, I mean, how does it affect me and people I work with? And the answer is really, it doesn't. It might affect some of the post-production techniques, I suppose, but really going out and taking photographs is...

david southern (45:46.49)
That's my personal view.

Joe Cornish (46:13.346)
we do because we love to go outside with our cameras and learn more about the world from that and also just the interaction that we have. And AI can't do that for you. So at least I don't think it can. So yeah, maybe there's a few tools in editing, but Tim, can you think of anything?

Tim Parkin (46:31.966)
Well I think it will impact people who are selling photography in terms of rights managed or stock photography.

david southern (46:47.297)
Yeah, I don't... Part of human nature is appreciating that things aren't perfect. And if we have AI creating perfect facsimiles of nature, they will never be real for us. So I do think, you know, and the other thing about AI is that we all... humans are interested in humans.

They're not generally interested in robots. And I don't think that will ever change at all. You we will still be reading books in 30 or 40 years time about the human condition. And I think this, I don't quite know how to articulate that in terms of photography, but I do think we are interested in the human condition as humans. And in some way that will manifest itself in the way photographs going, I hope.

Joe Cornish (47:57.934)
the internet. Don't you love it? Or not?

david southern (48:05.475)
So Joe, have you come across AI much in your field and your work at the moment?

Joe Cornish (48:12.428)
No, not at all. mean, I don't, well, I mean, only in that apparently some of the tools in Lightroom and Capture One may now be affected by AI, but I don't consciously use them. And in fact, I do use some of the clever auto masks, which maybe use a form of AI, but I very rarely use them because I actually prefer to use more traditional methods since most of my post-production is basically zonal.

So I use brushes and elliptical filters mainly. So that's about all I can think of. What about you, David? Are you finding anything at all?

david southern (48:51.096)
No, the only time I've used it was in the Photoshop have a denoise tool, which is AI powered. It's quite a powerful denoise tool.

quite useful. That is the only time in which I've used it. But I'm a bit of a purist in a way in all my photographs. I've never put anything in the photograph that wasn't there and I've never taken anything out that wasn't in the original frame and that's either in the field or in the computer. So I can say hand on heart. But that's just a personal integrity and I like that. You know I find

I was showing a picture the other day of some periwinkles, some shells on the beach, really lovely colourful periwinkles. And it was one that was tucked inside another one that just caught the eye in this lovely pattern of colourful periwinkles. And I showed that to an audience and they said, you must have bought that. I said, no, that's how I find it. And if you spend enough time in your hands and knees searching on...

a bunch of periwinkles on the beach you will find something magic like that and it wouldn't be magic if you'd put that in a computer but it is if you find it in nature to me anyway it's very rewarding to treasure

Joe Cornish (50:16.814)
Thanks.

Tim Parkin (50:18.109)
agreed yeah and I think at the end of the day people want to engage with with people like you said it's human condition I want to see photographs by people because I'm interested in what those people are photographing not the photograph on its own quite often so hopefully that will stay well thank you very much David really appreciate that it's been really interesting

Joe Cornish (50:31.97)
Yeah.

david southern (50:37.889)
Thank you, it's been great talking to you both, really enjoyed it, thanks.

Joe Cornish (50:40.726)
Yeah, thanks, David. Fascinating insights and actually in every respect. it's always interesting to, you when you see somebody's photography and then when you talk to them, you find out so much more about their, you know, about their background and how it's influenced the way they think and see. So yeah, it's been really, really fascinating. Thank you.

Tim Parkin (51:01.399)
And thank you to everybody who asked questions. And I'll say goodbye, but I'll stop the recording now.

david southern (51:01.431)
Thank you both.