On Landscape - Any Questions Private

Tim Parkin (00:01.368)
Hello and welcome to On Landscape. Any questions? I'm here with my co-host Joe Cornish and myself, Tim Parkin, with our guest, Rachel Talibar. Hello, Rachel.

Rachael (00:13.038)
Hello, hi Tim and Joe, thank you very much for inviting me.

Tim Parkin (00:16.768)
No problem at all. For the benefit of people who may not know your work, could you give us a short summary of who you are? Photography related.

Joe Cornish (00:16.861)
Great to see you.

Rachael (00:26.51)
Yeah, I'm a specialist in coastal photography, so the sea and the coast it carves and I've been full-time pro for nine years now and I'm obsessed with the sea. I think that basically covers it.

Tim Parkin (00:45.324)
Yes, yeah, I was actually reminding myself of your portfolio earlier today. And I was particularly pleased to see the Tracy's portfolio, which is lots of interesting extra things. Because I'd seen the ghost in the shell, which is non-wave photography. think a lot of people will know you for the waves, sirens project, but with the shells and also Tracy's, is, how do you describe Tracy's textures?

Rachael (01:14.808)
textures, yeah, and that's actually much of that portfolio predates the wave stuff actually.

Tim Parkin (01:15.916)
Yeah, found texture.

Tim Parkin (01:22.646)
okay.

Joe Cornish (01:23.08)
That's interesting. Also, I wanted to ask Rachel, Tim before you we actually got several interesting questions from from our landscape contributors and readers and but before we get into them, Rachel, your work or you say you've been pro for, you know, nine years, but your work is really artistic. And I'm just intrigued to know before your

previous career, which you might want to mention, whether you, you know, what your artistic background is, because, you know, it's, it's, I always think that, you know, childhood and what happened then is usually pretty important for what happens in adult life. So yeah, be fascinated to hear that.

Rachael (02:13.4)
Well, as a child, was certainly no artist. I think I scraped a B in O-level art. And I think the teacher thought I was lucky to get that. But I was a writer. Actually, I thought I was going to be a novelist. And then I took a strange, dark turn towards the legal profession for many years and stopped writing. But I did actually, I have had published

Joe Cornish (02:22.984)
You

Tim Parkin (02:28.919)
Rachael (02:40.638)
short science fiction, I used to write science fiction, it's had a short story published years ago and that's what I thought I'd end up doing and after I finished the legal profession I did actually go back to university and studied English literature and as part of that some history of art and then I did a masters in Victorian literature and art just before I started to devote myself to photography about 10 years ago.

Tim Parkin (02:43.254)
that's really interesting. Yeah.

Joe Cornish (02:45.202)
Wow. Wow.

Rachael (03:09.132)
So there's that, definitely. But I think probably I was more influenced by my mum, who definitely was the artistic one in the house. And she was a true romantic at heart. I mean, with a big R like, know, Shelley Keats, all that. And the romantic art as well. She liked the gothic and moody, slightly scary, the sublime. So I think you can see the influence coming through there. And I was very close to my mother, so.

I think that must have really influenced me.

Tim Parkin (03:42.92)
I'm going to take a sidetrack because I'm a science fiction fan of various genres. What sort of genre of science fiction was it? What did you write? Because it covers quite a few bases.

Rachael (03:52.111)
Well, it was sort of more realistic near future sci-fi. So the short story, which, I mean, gosh, I don't want anyone to look for it. Fortunately, it's a fascinating name, so you won't be able to find it, because it's dreadful, I'm sure. It's imagining a post-apocalyptic near future where it just tells the story of a school girl walking to school through a very different world. And you just sort of...

Tim Parkin (04:02.904)
Power.

Tim Parkin (04:07.64)
Parable of the Sower type things is it?

Rachael (04:19.15)
as the story goes on it starts off quite normally with a kid going to school and then the descriptions start to reveal that the world is very different from what we know. hope it wasn't prescient.

Tim Parkin (04:27.414)
Yeah, having just read Parable of the Sower, I think I can relate to that, which is fun. Yeah. No, Parable of the Sower is still science fiction, but it's about the near post-apocalyptic America breaking down. Yeah, similar. Yeah. So why picking up the camera? that something from your... Okay.

Rachael (04:42.286)
it was president. Yes.

Joe Cornish (04:44.648)
I think it's going to same.

Rachael (04:51.808)
My dad was the photographer, a keen amateur. He used to subject us to slideshows and it was subjective, my brother and I would just sigh, you know, we'd rather watch stars than watch but we had to sit and watch dad's slides but we were very well behaved and we did it.

Tim Parkin (04:59.704)
slides.

Tim Parkin (05:03.672)
Hahaha.

Tim Parkin (05:11.544)
So did you, because you mentioned in one of your interviews coming back with baskets, bags and bags of exposed film, presumably 35 mil.

Joe Cornish (05:11.848)
That's fun.

Rachael (05:21.898)
Yeah, yeah, as a young adult, I was, I was a keen hobbyist and I used to travel a lot because I had a very challenging job, very challenging career that didn't give me much free time, but I used the holidays. It did pay well. So when the holidays came along, I was able to afford to go on an adventure and I took a 35 millimeter camera with me and just took far too many photographs. mean, honestly, my honeymoon, we went to Zimbabwe.

So Safari, you do take a lot of photos on Safari. We were away for three weeks and I brought back 52 exposed rolls of film. The developing, so didn't, it was colour. didn't, know, so I sent you off to be developed and I'm not, still haven't told my husband how much that cost 32 years later. He still doesn't.

Tim Parkin (06:01.806)
That's quite impressive. Yeah.

Tim Parkin (06:11.352)
Did, was that having slight, we're still having slideshows as well at home.

Rachael (06:16.142)
No, no, by now I was I had moved out of the family home living living with my fiance and indeed husband So I got them all

Tim Parkin (06:24.504)
So did any of those pictures survive into your Tracey's portfolio? No.

Rachael (06:30.518)
No, no, they're dreadful. They are awful pictures, but they, you know, they record what I saw at the time and they're a good memory. Photography is great for that, it?

Tim Parkin (06:44.302)
I should probably move on to the questions because I could ask unless you've got anything else to ask Joe Now we can we can add some more later

Joe Cornish (06:49.946)
No, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, go ahead.

Tim Parkin (06:55.182)
Yes, Madeleine Lennard. Do you know Madeleine? Yes.

Rachael (06:57.992)
yes, she's got a lovely, lovely book.

Tim Parkin (07:03.116)
Yes. She says, I've been following Rachel's work for quite a few years and enjoyed meeting up with her at last year's GDT. I would love to hear a comment on the following question. How do you see your work evolving at the moment? What trends have you noticed and what avenues are you eager to explore?

Rachael (07:04.184)
Yes.

Rachael (07:19.36)
I'm obsessed at the minute with water crashing into rocks using the longest focal lengths I can, fast and slow shutter, but no slower than a quarter of a second. Cause I don't want to smooth it out. And honestly, that is probably not going to interest anyone else because there's quite a lot of repetition, but it's not boring me. So I'm just doing it. And yeah, I'm loving it actually really loving it.

Joe Cornish (07:49.704)
I must say that's a really fascinating because I can see the appeal of that as well. Although I wouldn't necessarily have it as my only subject. although you say there's repetition, which absolutely there is, at the same time, it's every moment's unique. There's never a moment where something repeats itself exactly. So in that sense, each time you open the shutter and make an exposure, you're creating something that's unique potentially.

Rachael (08:11.918)
Mm.

Joe Cornish (08:19.782)
And all that energy is highly unpredictable. And that unpredictability is what makes it such an, to my mind, such an appealing subject.

Rachael (08:28.428)
I'm glad you get it. Yeah, I mean, totally. I just come back from on Monday night from Nazaré, where I go quite a lot because we have a second home there. And I was ignoring the big waves, even though it was a big wave day on the surface out there and I was just photographing.

seafoam being flung against rocks and I had the best time, absolutely the best time and you everyone else thinks I'm mad. I heard someone talk, there were some people behind me at one point, I think it was a workshop group but I didn't recognise them and I stayed incognito with my hood and I heard the guy saying, I don't know what that woman in front is photographing all the time, it's nothing. I thought, little do they know.

Tim Parkin (09:13.921)
Little do they know.

Rachael (09:17.122)
But the pictures might not be that great. They seriously might not be. But I had the best time. And that's all.

Tim Parkin (09:22.35)
Well, I've just been reading about the way that Facebook and the like, social media channels try and make things addictive to try and get people to engage more with it. And part of that is the unknown of what you might get every time you click on the next article or scroll down to the next thing. Do think there's that little bit of addiction in the work there where you go, hmm, another one, let's see what that one comes out like, or if I could get that one again.

Rachael (09:47.756)
Yeah, totally. know, I'm doing stupid things. Like, it's windy and I've got a 400 millimeter lens on a tripod trying to, at full reach, trying to do a quarter of a second. And 80 % of those pictures, the rocks need to be sharp, by the way. In 80 % of them pictures, they won't be because it's wobbled. But in 20 % they're sharp and I had fun. So it's all good.

Tim Parkin (10:09.325)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (10:14.744)
So even when you get a good photograph composition and waves and stuff, like crossing your fingers that it's sharp as well.

Rachael (10:21.452)
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Cornish (10:22.12)
It's funny what you're saying about being incognito because I, I'm on a WhatsApp, a small WhatsApp group with Mark Littlejohn. And he said, he sent a picture of you, Rachel, recently, had to have every day. And there's no way you could have known who it was. But he knew it was you. But there you were in the middle of a storm out on the middle of some beach. And

It was sand whipping around you and it was very silhouetted. was rather a good picture, typical Mark. He can take a good picture with a phone. yeah, so I thought, well, it was credit to your dedication to your art, that's for sure.

Rachael (11:06.84)
Well, that was funny. Mark actually made a video of me on that beach in that school. And by the way, Mark was being a true gentleman. He had a one-to-one client with him and it was, it was a wicked storm. You know how they can happen on Harris, but this was one of the strongest, I've been to Harris a lot, one of the strongest I've ever experienced. Lasted 10 minutes, but it was wicked. Mark was literally made himself into a human shield for his client. He's such a gentleman.

But anyway, he took this video of me and then he put it on social media and some of the comments we got, like someone said, she's still using her camera. Doesn't she know that it will be ruined? And all this stuff was going on. The camera was just fine and I kept rolling and I took some video myself and I really like it. So there.

Tim Parkin (11:57.422)
I've actually got a question from our little John. Just chatting with him and he says that he wanted to know how you quantify success. I would say a man of few words, but that's not really true with Mark.

Rachael (12:00.601)
really? Okay.

Joe Cornish (12:09.414)
That wouldn't be true.

Rachael (12:12.458)
That's actually quite a good question. Yeah, Mark's a nice guy. like him. Don't tell him I said that, that'd go to his head. Anyway, yeah, how do I quantify success? Well, I have to be, I have to caveat this with that I'm no longer a spring chicken and I am financially stable thanks to the previous miserable but well lucrative career and the fact that my lovely husband stayed in.

that miserable but lucrative career. So, you know, I do quite well with my photography. It pays quite a lot of bills. It saw my daughter through college in the USA, stuff like that. So it's doing all right. But I am in the luxurious position, the privileged position that I can say, hand on heart, that for me, success is feeling fulfilled by the work that I make.

And that happens when I create work and it comes off the printer and I print it and I stick it on the wall. That's the moment of success for me. If that picture makes me feel that wonderful rush of, yes, I love it. That's success for me. Whether it's going to be well received afterwards, whether it's going to the edition will sell out or it will linger never selling a single print. That's not.

part of the definition of success for me but I am ready to acknowledge that I'm in a privileged position to be able to say that but that is the truth.

Joe Cornish (13:43.952)
I think that's very honest. And it's helpful to have that background, I'm sure for anybody who is wondering because I do hear what you're saying in it and agree to a large extent if you if you're somewhat free, at least of financial pressures, you can you can you then are able to pursue your what drives you, you know, what's in your heart and soul rather than run what's going to necessarily put food on the table. So yeah, and

It's actually fascinating. I just come back from London and had a couple of went to a couple of art shows as you do and reading the background of artists from especially from the last century and, and the one before how, how while many of them have a very left, left wing or left of center view of the world. Very revolutionary often. yeah, you know, kind of perspective.

they're almost all from privileged backgrounds and not necessarily born with, you know, from a high status, but from the very least sort of middle class and able to pursue what they wanted to do without that pressure. So, you know, I think it's worth saying that is a privilege and it's hard to get to that position for many. And we should be mindful of that. But of course, I think it's true that from a truly creative standpoint, if you make work without

too much pressure, it helps you to pursue what really, really is deep inside you. And that's a big advantage,

Rachael (15:22.126)
I think it is too. And I do feel very lucky to be in that position. I think I still want my businesses to be successful because there's a feeling of fulfillment that comes from that and pride and, they, they do do very well. So I, you know, I feel very lucky and proud of those businesses, but the danger is that if you chase that too much, it can stop you. And I think I will be honest and admit, cause what's the point in me talking if I'm not honest, that

Tim Parkin (15:22.253)
Hmm.

Rachael (15:51.55)
I have come close to making that mistake and in fact I'm taking, my clients know this already, I'm taking seven months off from the workshops business. The first half next year I won't be doing any teaching, no talks, no teaching, not any online stuff. I'm just stopping that business, it's going on hiatus for seven months so that I have time to get back to creating.

because I don't carry a camera when I teach and I do a lot of workshops and I enjoy them. So I'm not abandoning that business, but it has, it's done so well that it's dragged me away from making you work for myself. And I think I need to get back to that. So I've made that decision.

Joe Cornish (16:39.474)
sabbatical, we all need one.

Rachael (16:40.63)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (16:41.484)
Yeah, you keep saying you're going to have a spaticle, don't you Joe?

Joe Cornish (16:45.528)
I mean in a way my whole life is a sabbatical term.

Tim Parkin (16:48.174)
Yes. Yeah. I feel like that when you when you talk about us moving up to Scotland, we keep on saying we should retire and we sort of have retired in a way. there you go. Retiring is just doing what you want to do mostly.

Rachael (16:49.41)
I don't know.

Joe Cornish (17:02.408)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so more questions from the panel.

Tim Parkin (17:05.686)
More questions, OK. We're to have a question from John Hedges. You've printed a few books or had printed for you. Do you have any suggestions on how to make sure you produce something that is going to be both successful and also personally satisfying?

Rachael (17:21.07)
that's a good question. Okay, now I need to be careful here and tactful. I've had four books so far. There's probably two more in me, I think, but we'll see. And the fourth one is the first one that I have been really, really proud of.

Now that's awful to say because lots of people bought the others and I feel really, really bad to say that. But the first three were published and the fourth was effectively self-published. It's a sort of quasi self-publishing model. worked with Eddie Ephraim's and the reason I did with fourth was because of dissatisfactions that I'd experienced with the first three, where I felt that too often we compromised.

for the commercial demands of the project and that actually that went too far on each occasion and that at the end

Tim Parkin (18:20.834)
Was that through image choice or was it through material printing substrates and finish? Yeah.

Rachael (18:27.966)
Yeah, the latter, the latter, the printing itself and the materials and the format of the book. So what I really wanted to do was I wanted to make a book where as far as is possible, I to be a bit realistic, this is litho printing, it's not fine art printing, but as far as possible to have every picture as good as the limited edition prints that people would be buying of those pictures as well.

And so I went to Eddie and I said, right, Eddie, I want to do this ridiculous project and you're the only person I could think of who might be just about willing to participate in this project. And I'm going to say yes to every question that involves me spending more money.

Joe Cornish (19:15.944)
Lucky him.

Rachael (19:18.702)
Well, not quite that much, but, you know, it came to the actual format of the book, the size, the paper, how it was going to be printed. And it was financially, it was completely mad. It still is completely mad.

Tim Parkin (19:21.388)
Haha.

Tim Parkin (19:34.722)
Out of interest with that, because Eddie, lot of his short run books are done with digital printing. Still CMYK, but he does some life over larger runs. And I presume also he does some inkjet where you combine the inkjets together. What was the book done? What process was used for yours? Yeah.

Rachael (19:54.03)
We used Litho and we went to EBS in Verona, who were brilliant by the way. It would be really hard for me to see a book printed by anybody else now because they're so good and they were lovely and really professional and just invested in it being the best it could be, which was lovely. And I went on press, which the first time I've been able to do that, and I really enjoyed that experience. Yeah, so we went Litho. The book is

Tim Parkin (19:59.182)
Yep. Yeah.

They know what they're doing. Yeah.

Rachael (20:22.51)
Physically, the outside dimensions are big. It's bigger than A3. There only, I can't remember the number of pages, but it's not an enormous number of pages. It's more about, because it's sirens, I think there's a danger that it becomes repetitive with such a tight project if you have too many pictures. So I can't remember how many pictures there are in there now, but it's few of them. It's 45 or something. Yeah.

Tim Parkin (20:46.222)
It's 40 plates, remember reading about it.

Rachael (20:50.56)
really big format book but litho printed, here's the craziness, so in total including the special edition we printed fewer than 200. So of course it makes no financial sense whatsoever and it was only to be sold through the galleries that represent me so it's priced for that.

so limited edition, sold through galleries who take their commission, which I don't begrudge them by the way. And it was an insane project, but at the end of it, I finally have a book of which I'm truly proud. And it was worth it.

Joe Cornish (21:33.672)
Oh, that's wonderful. Sorry, especially if you don't lose money. mean, I would say that. Well, fair enough. Much, I suppose. But, it's Yeah, and, that's a wonderful feeling. And by the way, I've lose money on most of the books I do as well. But it's the most important thing is, is to feel that you've left something that is a well that yeah, as you say that you're proud of, I think that's admirable. Brilliant.

Tim Parkin (21:33.688)
Yeah, I mean...

Rachael (21:38.245)
I've lost money.

Rachael (22:02.84)
Well, thank you. yeah, I mean, I may never do any another book. And if I don't, well, this one's a good one to end on.

Tim Parkin (22:09.91)
If we add up all the costs of everything we do, spending on photography through travel and everything else, it's probably a small percentage of that at the end of the day to come out with something that is your life's work recorded. making money on it isn't the most important thing.

Rachael (22:22.73)
Exactly,

Joe Cornish (22:28.552)
And working working with Eddie is great. I mean, he's a dear friend of mine. And I, we've done so many projects together, we always learn stuff doing, doing things with him, if only because he loves to reinvent the wheel each time. And that does force you to actually consider, you know, from the foundation of the concept upwards rather than just taking a predetermined approach. And that's obviously you've enjoyed that. And that's absolutely great.

Rachael (22:55.038)
I really did. I got on very well with Eddie and he came on press with me and was so, so helpful. Invaluable, actually.

Tim Parkin (23:03.832)
Did you have to remake any plates on press? Excellent.

Rachael (23:06.766)
No, it all went very smoothly. The best thing was the duotones for the black and white. They have a guy at EBS and he is so good at that. And when we arrived, first thing almost that I had to do was go and sit next to him and he took me through all the duotones, making sure that I was happy. And I remember at one point I was saying, yeah, it looks great. And he was saying...

Tim Parkin (23:16.024)
Hmm.

Tim Parkin (23:20.45)
Yeah, bit of a black art, yeah.

Rachael (23:35.86)
It is your work, be sure. He didn't want me to just, you he didn't want me to be pragmatic, he wanted me to be panickety and I loved that.

Joe Cornish (23:38.664)
Fantastic.

Tim Parkin (23:46.862)
Excellent. My colleague Matt has asked a question. He says, you're very well known for your images of waves that resemble sea creatures or sirens. I imagine having captured that niche has been good for your photography career. However, I'm curious if you've ever felt like it has limited you in terms of wanting to creatively pursue other types of images that might not fit in with the area, for instance, the ghost and the shell traces. Do you ever feel that that may overshadow the works?

the press are very attracted to that side of things.

Rachael (24:18.89)
Yeah, no. I mean, the thing is you have to keep moving on. You can't, you can't just keep, you I don't, I don't want to be one of those, you know, pot boiler novelists who just, you know, hit on a formula and just keep bashing it out. And these days you can't do that in photography anyway, because as soon as you hit upon a new thing, you will be copied endlessly. And by people who are pretty good, you know, they're capable of copying your work.

Tim Parkin (24:20.407)
No.

Rachael (24:47.626)
and making it look like your work. And there are many, many, many people doing that. Many, many people photographing their own sirens. I've given lots of talks as well. So it's not like I've hidden how I did it and they know where to go and when to go there because I can't, you can't teach and hold back, can you? So I'm very generous with all of that. And yeah, I mean, there's even, I've even recently a client, won't say who, did well in a competition with a wave.

made at New Haven that looks like mine and he actually called it Medusa. So they're even nicking my mythological concepts. Yeah, so the only answer to that is to move on, is to innovate. There's nothing you could do about it so there's no point in losing sleep over it. Now you might acknowledge to yourself that you're slightly miffed every now and then and then just move on and make new work and keep innovating.

Tim Parkin (25:21.302)
Ooh, little close.

Tim Parkin (25:42.424)
Does your gallery ask, curse you and say, can we have some more?

Rachael (25:46.702)
Yeah, so I work with four galleries and one of the galleries only, two of them only want sirens, but there are enough left, that's fine. Okay, the gallery in America started with sirens but has now moved much broader and they're selling a lot of other things from my portfolio and then the fourth gallery don't want any sirens at all, they want other stuff.

Tim Parkin (26:14.242)
That was interesting. Excellent.

Rachael (26:15.724)
So actually, it's OK.

Tim Parkin (26:18.424)
That's really good.

Joe Cornish (26:19.9)
That is good. That's surprising, actually, that they have got an open mind about it. But it's that's good. I mean, it's proof that they recognize your talent and it's not just about one thing. But it's great, I think, to have that range. I mean, I totally empathize with the position that you find yourself in. of course, there's nothing that think of Michael Kenner, who's been very, very widely copied. But you know,

The fact is even Michael wasn't the first to do the sort of thing that he's well known for. You we all have antecedents or precedents or whatever the right term is. So it's almost impossible to do something original and you can't own anything in the creative world. I think what you can do is be yourself and try to at least own your own work. And the authenticity of that is what people recognize and on some level, and it's what gives you that longevity, I think.

Rachael (27:18.83)
I think you're right and I think that was really well put and I think also it's quite good to be reminded every now and then that you do stand on the shoulders of giants no matter what and I've forgotten the name of the photographer now which is really annoying I have to try and find it but a while ago

Joe Cornish (27:20.39)
Sir.

Rachael (27:38.816)
a client or someone online sent to me a link. They'd found a photograph that was taken in the 1920s. And I think it was in a Scandinavian country. And it is of, it's a fast shutter photograph of a clopotic wave. It looks like one of my sirens. And somebody did that with the technology they had in the 1920s. I was properly humbled by that. And it's no bad thing.

Tim Parkin (28:07.03)
I've got another question about the the sirens actually. because this comes from the point of view of the pareidolia and seeing faces etc in pictures and there's obviously a positive in that because it's been it's worked very well for the series. Do you ever feel that that can get in the way because I know sometimes my mum has some see faces in so many different things and sometimes I show her a picture.

Joe Cornish (28:07.61)
It's very.

Tim Parkin (28:36.302)
And she's, oh, look, I can see pictures in there. I'm like, look at the picture. I don't need to see the face. Do you ever feel it could get in the way of appreciating the actual picture as an abstract in itself?

Rachael (28:48.238)
Yes, it absolutely can. There's nothing more irritating is then someone saying, look at that bunny rabbit, know, serious work of art. Definitely, it can be annoying. I mean, when it's part of the project, obviously you're inviting people to do that. And I think you can frame your work in such a way as you encourage people to do that. If it's part of the point of the work. I've got a photograph that's not a siren, but it's a picture of just rocks.

Tim Parkin (29:12.877)
Hmm.

Rachael (29:18.092)
and there's a little whitish triangular rock in the foreground in front of a sort of narrow sea cave that's curving behind it and some dark rocks around. And there are so many faces in those rocks. And I've called it faces because I actually want people to see them because it feels like the little rock, which I don't think has a face, it's being surveilled or...

looked down on paternalistically depending on how you're feeling at the time by all these dark rocks around it and so I've invited people to engage by calling it faces but with some of my more abstract pictures like the ones in traces I might be less keen on people finding bunny rabbits and dogs in there so I try and use titles in a way that will encourage people to

Tim Parkin (29:45.432)
Yeah.

Rachael (30:10.06)
to go in a direction that I like, but I think we all have to acknowledge that once the artwork's out there, we lose control of it and we just got to embrace that. I mean, it's good in a way if people are interpreting your work, isn't it?

Tim Parkin (30:23.747)
Hmm.

Joe Cornish (30:25.128)
There's a very funny I don't know if you remember this, but it's a very funny Charlie Brown cartoon from many years ago, actually now where Charlie Brown and Lucy and their friend Linus I think it is he's the clever one who plays Beethoven, are lying on the ground on a sunny, sunny day looking up at the clouds. And I think Linus says, What can you see in the sky? I can see

you know, a Renaissance painting with, you know, and with a lot of action and describe something like a, you know, something out of a Leonardo or Paragena or something. And then Lucy says, I could see, I can see a city with shapes and, and so on and so on. What can you see Charlie? And Charlie said, well, I was going to see, I saw a ducky, but I changed my mind.

So it's this kind of, yeah, it was just lovely, just the fact that it was so, everybody can see something, but most people don't see anything that sophisticated, but we do see something different. And I think pareidolia is just part of human nature. In fact, I suspect it's part of evolutionary biology, isn't it? So anyway, and I think that's a wise way of putting it.

Rachael (31:35.598)
Hmm.

Tim Parkin (31:45.752)
Definitely. Yeah.

Rachael (31:46.146)
I think it is.

Joe Cornish (31:52.904)
If you want to manage the interpretation a bit, title it accordingly. And if you don't, don't. yeah.

Rachael (32:00.098)
I think so.

Tim Parkin (32:00.332)
Out of interest, when you were working on the sirens, you ever think about it as portrait photography?

Rachael (32:07.598)
Yes, a lot. I mean, I actually like the way the waves have pronouns. You know, Medusa is a she and if I talk about the photograph, I don't say it when I talk about the wave, I say she. Yeah, yeah, they're portraits.

Tim Parkin (32:15.992)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Parkin (32:23.234)
Yes. And for the rest of the picture, do you think about that? That's the context, the studio for the portrait. Yeah.

Rachael (32:32.878)
Yes, and in fact I was at the photography show yesterday talking about context in landscape photography and how I like to excise it quite a lot, if not entirely. And one of the things I said was that for sirens I wanted a plain sky. I didn't want a spectacular sky. I mean, A, it would have been a massive distraction, but also I quite...

I didn't say this at the photography show, I just said it would be a distraction, but actually you've made me think also I think I would say that it wouldn't be a portrait then, you you'd expect a plain backdrop for a portrait and yeah, they're portraits, they are very wise.

Joe Cornish (33:14.568)
I think it's really interesting how the literary associations that you bring in from your personal and familial kind of connection with romantic literature and so on, and certainly classical mythology, I just think that's great. obviously it gave you a direction, I would imagine. And certainly the emotion in the images, the drama and the...

power of them and even just, you know, we think come back to the photographic techniques that you use the way that you frame, obviously, principally the way they're framed, but then also the way that they're rendered in terms of tone and the mood and so on all of that is is influenced by the fact that you want to create that deep emotional kind of well drama is dramatic theatrical is a number of ways it could be described, but the fact that you have that desire to bring a new life in a way to the

subject matter, think is great. And it's lovely to hear what some of the backdrop to that is.

Rachael (34:18.178)
Well, thank you. Thank you. I think you pour your soul, don't you, into your photographs. And yeah, I certainly did pour mine into sirens.

Joe Cornish (34:25.116)
Hopefully so. Yeah.

Joe Cornish (34:30.152)
You I heard you I was lucky enough to hear you talk a year and half ago, Rachel. And it was, I think you might have even told us all right, I might have asked I forget now but the the way that the sirens were shot and their location you as you said, you were very generous of it, telling us everything about it. And I think you were literally there. You knew about the storm coming and you were there all day. I was thinking, absolutely down on your chest getting soaked to the skin and you

barely even noticed how cold and damp and probably horrible it was because you were so preoccupied. And I thought, well, that is a proper photographer or artist, depending on your interpretation. But just to be able to do that, it's amazing. It's like having an almost an out of body experience really.

Rachael (35:19.82)
I think that's exactly what it's like actually, but I mean, we're certifiable really, aren't we?

Tim Parkin (35:27.414)
I did have a tongue-in-cheek question from somebody called Joseph Turner who said, have you ever felt the urge to tie yourself to the mast of a ship during a storm?

Rachael (35:36.398)
Yeah, there's serious doubt that he ever actually did that. I think that was an early, early form of advertising puff that was. But yeah, very good PR. No, I would be so seasick, I would be horribly ill and I wouldn't be able to do anything. So no.

Tim Parkin (35:45.39)
Good PR. Yeah.

Joe Cornish (35:55.348)
It does occur to me that that picture, which I'm sure almost everyone watching this or listening to can visualize of storm at sea, is a great advert for intentional camera movement. So just saying. But it's a brilliant photo, brilliant painting.

Tim Parkin (35:55.394)
Are you still seasick? Sorry.

Rachael (36:10.232)
Absolutely.

Rachael (36:15.724)
Yeah, it is. I love it.

Tim Parkin (36:18.734)
I have a question about your releasing work. People have different ideas about how to release work and some people will apologize if they haven't posted something on a particular day because they've let their viewers down. And I think you post or release a few less than daily. And do you ever feel the urge to share more or is that do you have a

your own little set of people you share with or is it very much restricted to these are my releases.

Rachael (36:54.634)
I think it's changed over time. I mean, I'm, I'm tutoring on the brink of just dropping social media altogether. I just think it's awful and it's got worse and worse and worse. And the trouble is it can suck you in. So you feel like it, you start to behave like it's your job to feed the social media and that, you know, that's all that you're about. And that's ridiculous, isn't it? Because

I mean, all right, I can't deny that it can be useful. It was more useful in the past, I think, for photographers. One of the galleries, the gallery that sells the most work, the American one, I think found me on Instagram. you know, there are practical uses for it, but they have reduced over time. For me, the algorithm changed against me in February 2021. I mean, I knew the day the algorithm had changed, everything changed. And

Tim Parkin (37:51.692)
Yeah.

Rachael (37:52.65)
Even that sentence alone tells you how stupid this is that there's a computer algorithm just one day says, actually, you're not going to be popular anymore.

Tim Parkin (37:56.846)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (38:01.462)
Yeah, it's sad that it's not just how many people like your work or share it, it's down to how they want to control it.

Rachael (38:09.154)
Well, exactly. And you can get sucked into thinking someone's must be good because they've got a lot of followers on Instagram, which is ridiculous. And well, I have a lot of clients that I mentor or I do projects with over a long time. And one of the things I make them all do is review the websites of photographers that I think will be interesting and inspiring for them. Many of those photographers who are doing great work,

are well represented by galleries. In some cases they have prints in national collections, in the Smithsonian, in the V &A, are not on social media at all. You can actually end up corrupting your idea of what's a great piece of art because if all you see are people on social media because they're popular, you're closing yourself off to some of the best photographic art out there.

and you're corrupting your own inner library of inspiration. So I really am close to just dropping the whole lot. I just don't know if all of my galleries will be pleased with me. I do really owe them the...

Tim Parkin (39:24.75)
I think it's probably attitude towards it that needs changing potentially rather than dropping it. Because like you say, it's a tool. And you just need to control the tool and not let the tool control you.

Rachael (39:35.148)
Yeah, exactly right. But I'm not sure how good I am at that. But I don't share every day. In fact, I share less and less often on Instagram because I also, I will add to get tiny bit political, tiny bit, probably guess most photographers would say, I'm not right-wing. And I am horrified by the direction that Metta has taken. So now I feel...

Tim Parkin (39:39.073)
Not many people are gonna that's it, yeah.

Tim Parkin (39:48.822)
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Rachael (40:02.68)
philosophically inclined to drop them as well. So I have recently started an account on Blue Sky, which is at the moment more ethical at the moment. We'll see things change.

Tim Parkin (40:08.909)
Mm-hmm.

Seems more ethical, potentially.

Yeah, Google is ethical at one point though there.

Rachael (40:19.434)
Yeah, exactly. So we'll see. I don't know, but I don't, I used to play the game and find it fulfilling on some level. That is no longer the case. So.

Tim Parkin (40:32.854)
I had a great quote off a friend of mine who was a fine art degree. One of his lectures said to him, if everybody likes your work, you're doing something seriously wrong. And I thought that was a phrase to live by.

Rachael (40:52.118)
Yeah, exactly right. I agree with that. Well, you're making vanilla art, aren't you? If everyone likes it.

Tim Parkin (40:53.262)
And we. Yeah, I mean, we I did this when we when we started off with on landscape magazine, I I purposely never look at statistics. I don't care how many people read the articles. I'll I'll edit things to make it something I'm interested in. And then if people like it or don't like it, I'm never going to be as popular as an elements magazine or something like that. It's a niche audience.

that does a certain thing and does it the way I want it done. If it does it well, that's great. But it has to I think you have to do that with your your work or your art or what you're interested in.

Rachael (41:33.504)
I think that's lovely. Words to live by.

Joe Cornish (41:36.072)
Yeah, music to my ears, I must say. both of you there, just yeah. Especially as I never do. I did six months of social media about 100 years ago and I was depressed by the end of it. So I asked my son to remove me from social media, although there still seems to be a kind of ghost in the machine somewhere, which caused me pot-fell.

Tim Parkin (41:55.118)
I like the idea of a ghost Joe Cornish in the internet somewhere just flying around

Rachael (42:00.246)
Yes!

Tim Parkin (42:04.022)
I'm

Joe Cornish (42:04.09)
Anyway, I mean, I think Rachel, in your case, you surely you have the profile that you need. And it was interesting what you were saying, you know, that many of the other photographers and artists you admire have no, no social media presence. And that would be my view as well. So I think it speaks volumes, really. I'm not social media is there's nothing you can do about it. but I have the number of photographers I know who

to me, who described it to me as like a monster that you have to feed constantly. And that I just, just why do you want that dominating your life? I think that's something to step away from if possible. And I think the fact that it can contaminate the direction of your work is the biggest potential problem.

Tim Parkin (42:53.484)
Yeah, definitely.

Rachael (42:54.274)
Yeah, I agree.

Tim Parkin (42:57.386)
you, yeah, I do have another question. I believe you travel to Oregon every year or it did say in an article I read somewhere. how is the specific compared to the Atlantic?

Joe Cornish (42:57.926)
Any more questions, Tim?

Rachael (43:11.804)
okay. Well, that's interesting. I don't go every year. I did for a while. I'm trying to curtail my long haul traveling. I will, however, go there for the first time in five years, I think, this autumn, because my daughter lives on the West Coast now of the USA. So I feel that visiting family is something I can not feel guilty about.

even though the carbon footprint flying that far is quite a lot. I'm not going to not see my daughter, so I will visit her and then go up to Oregon. Do you know what is a bit like Cornwall and it's a little bit like Iceland, but only bigger. The beaches are huge. I Cornwall has, I was just there last month, has some epic beaches, but in Oregon they're immense. It's less busy.

Tim Parkin (43:39.49)
Hmm.

Tim Parkin (43:52.878)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (43:56.824)
Yeah.

Rachael (44:09.696)
you can have an immense beach almost to yourself, especially if you're willing to do the morning because it's west facing. Everyone goes for sunset, but sunrise, or actually I'm more interested in dawn, is such a beautiful time to be out on those beaches because there's nobody else there. It's just you, the bald eagles, know, and the waves, the driftwood, the sea stacks.

It's fantastic. It's just such a beautiful place. unlike most of America, Oregon has a similar approach to the UK. Private businesses can't own the foreshore in America. They had an enterprising governor at the turn of the 20th century who made a law that said no one can own the foreshore of the whole of this state. Yeah, so it's called the People's Coast.

Tim Parkin (44:52.065)
Okay, yeah.

Tim Parkin (44:59.918)
Very forward thinking.

Rachael (45:04.634)
And because of this, it's very accessible and you can get down on almost every bit of coast you could possibly want. And so you can find little hideaways, little cozy nooks that no one's at. you feel a bit like an explorer. Does that make sense? Yeah. I love it.

Tim Parkin (45:22.978)
Yeah, Do you do any other photography when you're over there? go to visit the woods or?

Rachael (45:31.63)
No. Yeah. I have done a little bit of woodland photography. In fact, I'm very good friends with Simon Baxter, who Joe knows very well, and you know, And I've been up with Simon and been out and photographed his trees with him just for fun. And, you know, the pictures sit on my hard drive. And I look at them every now and again and think these are lovely trees.

Tim Parkin (45:32.59)
Just the coast.

Joe Cornish (45:35.688)
It's a lot of trees.

Rachael (45:59.488)
It's yeah, I'll leave that to Simon. He's the tree guy. And you Joe. And you Tim. You're the tree guys.

Tim Parkin (46:08.142)
Well, I've only just started taking pictures again for a while. I haven't done any work for a couple of years at least. I moved up to the area in the islands to go and do some photography, be on the doorstep and ended up taking up other hobbies and climbing and stuff. So I just need to get.

Rachael (46:25.514)
Interesting. So what's it like going back to it? What's it like going back to it now after two years?

Tim Parkin (46:31.264)
It's good. I have the urge to move around more. I find it difficult to just stay in one spot in an area photographing for a morning and go and see what's over there or what's over there. So Joe's good company because you're very much the same, I think, You need to go and see what's over that ridge.

Joe Cornish (46:47.716)
to explore and I'd say when you came out with us the other day you came out with an absolute cracker so yeah you haven't lost it.

Tim Parkin (46:52.302)
That was good fun that was, yeah. Thank you very much. So what is happening in the future? you have any plans? I know you just said you're doing your rock wave meeting photography. Is there any other goals or books or you said they might have another couple of books in here?

Rachael (47:13.23)
I want to do, I would like to do a black and white book. I really love black and white and I really would like to do, I've got one laid out in Lightroom. I go and look at it every now and then think, do you know what, Rachel, you should really do this. So at some point I'll be emailing Eddie and saying, do you think we could do a black and white book? I think that's...

Tim Parkin (47:24.382)
yeah.

Tim Parkin (47:34.392)
There's something magical about duotone tritone printing as well that does look fabulous.

Rachael (47:38.828)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Joe Cornish (47:41.904)
It was if Tim, if we've come to the end of the questions, I've certainly got a few for Rachel or at least one. Yeah. So yeah, particularly, particularly, texture color, well, color, black and white, maybe. But you mentioned texture. it's something that is increasingly, I've found an obsession. And I, I might be wrong. But I think the reason is that textual subject matter is kind of

Tim Parkin (47:46.806)
Yeah, we've got 10 minutes left.

Joe Cornish (48:11.08)
And that, you know, that that feeling of touching and being in touch with the natural world with the real world is, is increasingly a subject that I would love to be able to do with my photography. And I just wondered, I was I was actually rather, I don't know something about about what you said about wanting to still get the rock sharp. I found that very encouraging. I sort of feel that is one of the superpowers of photography is the fine detail of

of the reality of the world is what makes photography powerful. Not to say that there's anything wrong with doing, you know, in ICM, if that's what floats your boat, but for me, the reality is part of it. And I'm looking more and more at subjects which are very rich in texture, almost as if the fabric, that kind of thing. Woodland is the obvious.

subject, but then again, rocks and water too can very much be part of that. I just wonder whether there is whether you'd had any parallel thoughts. don't have to. It's just it was just about, you know, when we say that we've been touched by something, I was wondering if there's a if there's something that we we may be easily missed because photography is kind of one step removed and we don't have the physicality of paint. But isn't there still something in that?

Sorry, I'm waffling here, but just wonder what your take was on that.

Rachael (49:40.132)
no, I don't think you are waffling. So we didn't go to this until now, but talking about the direction that I'm going in. I think my work is becoming more literal, which is a surprise. I didn't expect that, but it is. Yesterday, even though I'm talking about not having context,

your work I shared a picture which is just a photograph, I like top-down stuff, so it's a top-down photograph of the ground in the middle of Iceland in the lava desert and everyone will just say it's just a black plane but if you actually look at it properly, look down at it, it's not, I mean it is so textural and it's wind swept so the wind is carved

the lava into shapes and then there are different sorts of lava. So this particular picture is it's sort of brown, larval sand or dust that's been carved into windblown shapes. But then there are little pale gray grains of probably pumice dotted about all over it. And it's going to, I mean, if I were...

a member of a camera club and entered that in a competition, it would do badly because there's no leading lines. There's no way for the viewer to find their way through the frame. It's just amazing to me. Nature's done this and it's, everyone will just ignore that. But actually photography has opened my eyes to these incredible layers of texture, absolutely texture Joe and beauty.

in the world that if I weren't a photographer I would never have noticed that. You know I'd probably have my eye on the mountain thinking that's a cool mountain and walk straight across this amazing texture. I think I'm heading more towards that at the moment. You the waves breaking against the rocks that this they're pretty literal. You know I'm recording a moment and

Rachael (51:54.808)
I'm not really painting my interpretation on top of it beyond the fact that as soon as you put anything within four corners, you are interpreting it. But beyond that, I'm almost selfie-facing. Does that make sense? Yes.

Joe Cornish (52:10.957)
nature is the art. And that's I truly believe that there is a there's a deep seam of landscape based photography, which, you know, allows the natural world to be the artwork. And your job, it really is almost as if you were doing artwork copy, copying, you know, so you tend to use high resolution equipment with it's like the lens itself has to be so good that it disappears because it's just

it's just rendered the world as it is in some way. And I do love that idea of, you that you're kind of honoring the simple surface of the world and that every landscape has a story. So, you know, the Icelandic one, of course, is volcanic, but it's full of the energy of the now as well because of the wind or maybe the wave if you're by the coast.

and there are parallels elsewhere in the world. every landscape has its surface texture, which has a story to tell. that is lovely hearing you describe it because I just got a lot of inspiration from that. I'm even more fired up to go to egg now actually. Thank you.

Tim Parkin (53:23.726)
Interesting, I've been reading about Ruskin recently and you don't really see a lot of Ruskin's artwork beyond the filtered version of the Lake District, but he has some, his approach to detail and texture was fascinating because he was just as interested in the small detail and textures, the end of a glacier like carving into rock or some moss at the side of a river.

Rachael (53:24.27)
That's great.

Tim Parkin (53:51.832)
And it's just that you don't see it. And that was a very romantic view again. It's maybe not the sublime, but in many ways it has that romantic sublime about it as well in terms of amazement at what you're seeing in those small details.

Joe Cornish (54:08.892)
Yes, it's there isn't that sort of sense of wonder about the reality around us is is something if you can convey that is very magical. I mean, just briefly, I was lucky enough to go to Leonardo da Vinci drawings exhibition about three years ago in Edinburgh. And although you know, they're all these wonderful, amazing figure and portraits and horses and anatomy pictures and machines.

And then towards the end of his life, he starts to become obsessed with landscapes and the details in nature and specifically water flowing over rocks. So we're a good company, I'd like to think. But yeah, I know it just, and I think again, because he was somebody who was constantly curious about the world.

Rachael (54:52.518)
that's lovely. I like that.

Rachael (55:01.134)
Are you familiar with the American photographer, Jeffrey Conley? He's an analog worker, black and white, and I've got one of his books, it's called Reverence. And I think you, I mean, they're hard to get these books, they sell out really fast. But if you get one secondhand or you find one somewhere, I recommend it. And the reason I've mentioned him is because if I could,

Tim Parkin (55:05.14)
Mmm, yes.

Joe Cornish (55:05.498)
No.

Rachael (55:30.186)
nick his title and have a book called Reverence and it would just be these, as you put it so beautifully, Joe, honouring nature with photographs. I would love to but he's nicked that title already, it's his. I wouldn't dream of using it.

Joe Cornish (55:46.632)
You have to find a substitute, but you can always use it as a chapter title inside or a title, a picture title.

Rachael (55:51.758)
That's true. That's true. Yes. Yeah. But I think, I think that that is it. And I mean, I say that, yeah, you come up with things you say to clients, they can, if you say them enough, they start to sound like catchphrases. And I hate the idea of that, but I do think photography is, is 90 % seeing. And that's what we're doing with these, these simple reflections of, of nature. You know, we're seeing them and

I think that's the thing we can bring to the equation.

Tim Parkin (56:24.363)
That's the most enjoyable thing about having the pictures afterwards is seeing more into them that you didn't see at the time and rediscovery after the event.

Rachael (56:33.048)
Very true. Especially if you leave them for a while.

Joe Cornish (56:37.552)
That's true too. especially high res, I mean, maybe it's my eyesight's not that great these days, but I always find high resolution, well focused images are amazing. You sort of go into them and suddenly a whole world emerges that you didn't even see at the time. yeah, it is because everything is so complex and so rich. I mean, it's literally all over the world. But I think in the UK in particular and Scotland, I suppose, since that's where I do a lot of my

my favorite work as you know, every everything is every geological story is not a simple one. Iceland is actually, in theory, it's very simple, because it's so young as a country. And yet visually, it's absolutely fascinating is every type of volcanology that you can imagine. And that's then so you know, been altered by the glaciology and, you know, ebb and flow of the climate in that period. So yeah, there's always something to discover.

Rachael (57:18.126)
Hmm.

Joe Cornish (57:36.69)
just through maybe a simple picture, can just start a line of inquiry.

Rachael (57:42.57)
I agree.

Tim Parkin (57:42.734)
Well, thank you very much, Rachel and Joe, for co-hosting this. I know I really enjoyed that. And I'll put a few links to things in the article once it comes out.

Rachael (57:45.824)
Thank you.

Joe Cornish (57:54.438)
Yes, thanks Rachel. was absolutely fascinating and great fun to share your views of the world. I've beautifully put many of them too, so thank you.

Rachael (58:05.208)
Well, thank you very much and thank you to the listeners or viewers, whatever you would call them, readers, I guess, for some different questions, which was lovely.

Rachael (58:17.272)
Bye.