On Landscape - Any Questions Private

Tim Parkin (00:01.29)
Hello and welcome to On Landscape, any questions? We are usually here with Joe Cornish, myself and a guest, and our guest this issue is Theo Busboom. Hi Theo.

Theo (00:18.168)
Hi, good afternoon.

Tim Parkin (00:19.872)
And we normally have Joe Cornish with us. But unfortunately, Joe Cornish has had an accident whilst walking down a hill, took a bit of a tumble. So he's in a neck brace at the moment. He seems to be doing well, but he wants to try and rest as much as possible. So the wonderful Mark Littlejohn has stepped in as a pseudo Joe Cornish. How do you feel about being Joe Cornish for the day,

Theo (00:49.742)
You

Mark Littlejohn (00:50.009)
Well, as long as it could be fitted with an anti-gravity device like Joe does, then that'd be fine. Which maybe is due out of other week. But yeah, I've spoken to him this morning. Actually, he's in good spirits. He's doing well.

Tim Parkin (01:03.678)
Excellent, that's what we like to hear. Well, we have a bunch of questions from people and I'm not gonna go through them in order here, but let's start off with something that would have been asked to Joe, somebody called Rich Rooney asked about pre-visualization or is it just visualization? In terms of, he's talking about a recent article by an American.

landscape photographer who said he plans everything. He knows pretty much exactly what he's going to take before he arrives to a location. And the question was around how often or whether you ever approach landscape photography like that. Theo, what are your thoughts on pre-pre post visualization?

Theo (01:53.827)
For me, happens sometimes. Usually when I'm taking a walk or running or under the shower, sometimes I have an idea for an image. And if I would be able to draw, I could even point it out quite adequately, but I can't, so it stays in my head. And sometimes then I'm able to find

the image I have in the head. But it's not my normal way of working. Usually I just go out and see what attracts me in the field. And then I start working on it. And if it's a nice morning or a nice session, I come in a sort of flow and fell from one thing into the other. And there's no pre-visualization involved.

Tim Parkin (02:45.745)
If he.

Theo (02:50.092)
Like I said, sometimes I do have an idea and manage to make it. And even if it's sometimes years later or so, if you have the right conditions.

Tim Parkin (02:57.246)
Yeah. Is this ideas for particular locations or really concepts around subject matter and ways of photographing?

Theo (03:07.446)
Yeah, more the last thing, think you might remember my limpets images. I had one image where the project started and that were a group of limpets in a Portuguese landscape with a dramatic backdrop that was taken with a wide angle macro lens a couple of years ago. And that was an image that I've been searching for that was in my mind.

Tim Parkin (03:13.876)
Yes. Yes.

Theo (03:35.822)
for maybe one or two years before I found it because everything needed to come together there. The cliffs shouldn't be too far away because it was back then with a 50 millimeter wide angle lens. So they need to be quite close. Otherwise they would appear very tiny in the image because I don't do focal length stacking or whatever it's called. So it took me a lot of strolling on beaches.

Tim Parkin (03:47.455)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (04:00.511)
Yeah.

Theo (04:05.384)
also in northern Spain to find this perfect spot for the shot. And even after that I started to concentrate more on limpets and made a project and a story out of it. But it started with this single idea and this single image.

Tim Parkin (04:22.016)
And that's the photograph that you've entered in a few competitions, I think, is it?

Theo (04:26.924)
Yeah, it was awarded the Wildlife Photographer of the Year, think, seven years ago. Yeah.

Tim Parkin (04:29.408)
Mm.

Tim Parkin (04:33.556)
What about you, Mark? I know you're more of a wanderer, would say.

Mark Littlejohn (04:36.913)
Well, no, it was quite interesting that Téa was visualising even before he was out, he was thinking about what it was he wanted to capture, which is almost like an artist's way of looking at it, I think,

Theo (04:53.26)
Yes, maybe.

Mark Littlejohn (04:53.851)
Joe, I spoke to Joe this morning and he says hello to Rich. think Rich might have been with Joe and I in the lakes years ago. anyway, Joe was seeing its connection. So when he's out and about, obviously there's no preconceived idea as to what he's going to shoot. It's rhythm and shapes, perhaps texture links. Primarily, I suppose, a joy being outside. And then having watched Joe work,

I hate to say we're quite similar because he's just, I enjoy saying he's a legend because it'll upset him. But basically he really is, once he's visualized a scene or once he's seen a scene, he's incredibly careful how he sets up, incredibly careful, he's very, very precise. Time doesn't matter to him. It's a case of ensuring that he gets the image satisfied as to how he's pre-visualized it seen.

But he said, intriguingly, pictures look more real afterwards. So once he's taken a picture and taken it home and processed it, then it becomes more real. But for him, it's the joy of being outside. And I think it was one of the things that we, Cherish Read the Talkers at Lunen, where Tia and I were over the weekend, mentioned passion.

And for me, to say to Joe this morning, it's the old quote about wonder being the first of the passions. And for me, it's the wonder about being outside. It's not so much the, I don't feel it's a passion so much. Passion is more direct, I think. The wonder at being outside, and again, childlike wonder, child being the father of man, all that sort of stuff. It's really.

When I'm out and about, I see something in my imagination is quite vivid for an old person. And I just love being out and about. it's then, unfortunately, I now see in all sorts of colors because I split tone. So I see an image and I think, I'll tell you what, I could perhaps do this. I could bring that element of warmth into it.

Tim Parkin (07:15.924)
Big aircraft just gone past.

Mark Littlejohn (07:16.049)
Have you got a lot of time? I was going to say something, but can hear jets in the background, I think they might be here as well. They might be going down the coast. So I wonder if it will reach you in a few minutes.

Tim Parkin (07:23.606)
yes.

Theo (07:26.584)
You

Tim Parkin (07:27.456)
That's this big C130 that's just gone past.

Mark Littlejohn (07:34.779)
there's an RAF or whatever jet just going past us because we don't get low jets here. They're going across towards Iceland and circling around to America. But yeah, I I visualize the colors I see, I see anything. can do, I'll tell you what. I can do something with it. I can play with the color. I can attach a warmth. I can attach a cousin if I could make it maybe colder. And that's what I see.

Tim Parkin (07:59.21)
That's more like an Ansel Adams style pre-virtualization, isn't it? Seeing what treatment might work or what a red filter might do something or what a developing process might do for something.

Mark Littlejohn (08:10.994)
I've never read I have to say I've never read anything about Ansel Adams Didn't really shoot in color so it doesn't interest me

Tim Parkin (08:15.872)
Hmm.

Interesting on your your seaweed photographs, let's say that's little project there. Do you walk away from those very often and come thinking, well, actually, that might work, but it hasn't before and have an idea of potential, you know, concepts stuck in your head.

Mark Littlejohn (08:37.006)
It was really,

that was occasion where you really had to shoot quickly, which helped obviously me. You know, I think I mentioned it at the weekend when I was talking, the way I learned photography, being on a boat, traveling at 20 kilometers an hour and just seeing something, framing it, shooting it, moving on. And that helped with the seaweed. So you would see something and there would be an element of beauty within that small scene. And that's what I'd be capturing. So it could be a curve, it could be the layer and it could be perhaps just a gold and soft sheen because

Obviously the sea is just retreated. The sea weed's still damp, it's still moist. So you've got maybe a soft sheen. Sometimes you'd be there and the sun would come through and it would be pointless because it would be too bright. Other times the wind would be getting in the way because it would just flutter the seaweed. And obviously I'm handheld. I'm shooting quite slow speeds. your visualization, your...

sort of of pre-visualization to shooting and moving on is a matter of seconds. You've really got to like, bang, see it, frame it, decide what you're going to frame, decide what's important. Because again, if you're shooting at 400 mil and you're standing like six or seven feet away, you've got to decide not only what is it that attracted you, but because you've got a limited depth of field, because I'm not focused stacking, you've got to decide very, very quickly what it is

Tim Parkin (09:43.04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Theo (09:43.789)
Yes.

Mark Littlejohn (10:07.397)
about that scene that captured your heart, that basically made you fall in love a little bit with it. And then it was a case of, right, that's a section I like, what angle is going to be best? Get to that angle. So it looked completely stupid on the beach because it'd be Monty Python ministry funny walks, because it'd be trying to get into a position to take the shot and also staying still enough to take the shot. But once you'd done that, if it was an awkward position, I'd maybe take two or three because you never know.

and then I'd move on to the next one. So my pre-visualization was a bit different from Joe's. Joe's pre-visualization was studied, considerate, compassionate. Mine was excitable, impulsive, and quick. But we really...

Tim Parkin (10:52.672)
I've chatted with Joe a little bit about this before and some other photographers. And there's an expectation, I think, in beginning photographers that the professionals have these big preconceived ideas about what they want to find in locations. when I've spoken to people, it seems more like that they have a bank of things in the back of their head that are patterns that they might like.

Theo (10:52.918)
intuitive.

Tim Parkin (11:20.49)
But these aren't things that are conscious when you're looking for pictures. But every now and again, you'll be looking around a landscape and something will click and go. That matches something I've thought about before. Does that make sense Theo?

Theo (11:34.092)
Yeah, absolutely. think that is how it works for me in most cases. That's sometimes frustrating if you teach to other photographers because it's hard to get a grip on it and also hard to explain sometimes what happens. And indeed, I believe it's in the back of your head. maybe you could call it intuition. You feel something and that...

that is a sense of wonder, like Marc said, an attraction to visual attraction to your subject or to the landscape. And then you usually just start going. For me, it's not a rational process. I also usually work very quickly. Also try to be careful in my compositions. And it can mean that I'm busy with...

one image for half an hour or even an hour just with minor improvements if I really believe in the idea or in the thing that I see through my viewfinder. But it's not a very conscious process for me. It goes without thinking and maybe experience also helps a bit. the main thing is the visual attraction and trying to capture that feeling that it invokes.

Tim Parkin (13:00.32)
Daniel Eke asks about trends in photography. I know we've talked about this in the past Theo, particularly in relation to the move towards more intimate photography that's happened. But I'm wondering if Daniel's asking about how, are there any trends that you follow or even are there any trends that you react against to say, I'm gonna try and do something different because there are trends like that.

Theo (13:13.955)
Mm-hmm.

Theo (13:30.35)
Well, I'm not so occupied with trends usually. When I do write an article for OnLandscape, I sometimes try to zoom out and have a look at what's happening in landscape photography. But it's not so much influencing my own work, I guess. It is interesting to see what people send in, for instance, to the natural landscape.

awards where I was in the jury for two years. Then you start thinking of, this is apparently something that attracts a lot of people nowadays. And yeah, it makes you wonder, am I doing the same? Should I do it differently? Because I like to think and consider every now and then if what I'm doing is still fresh, because it's...

important for me. It's related to the theme of creativity and originality, especially in these times where there are so many great images, so many ambitious and qualified photographers that spend loads of time in the field. I think as a professional photographer, it doesn't hurt to sometimes think

Okay, is it good that I spent my time in this field or are there maybe other ways? it's a part of my profession that I like. I like to try to find new perspectives that haven't been done before. And it's fun to try. So it's not a very calculated approach, but it's...

It's something that's in me probably and yeah, that also goes kind of automatically.

Tim Parkin (15:31.38)
Mark, I mean, go on, Mark.

Mark Littlejohn (15:31.778)
Do you feel?

I mean, I notice you used the word competitive there to so many other photographers around. Is that something you think about being competitive or just allowing the nature of your work to speak for itself?

Theo (15:52.526)
Yeah, competitive is maybe not the term that I would mention, but it's more that I don't see the point of taking images that have already been taken loads of times before. I mean, I could go to Iceland again and photograph ice blocks on a black lava beach with the surf coming in. And it's great fun to do. I did it many times in the past, but...

Mark Littlejohn (16:08.817)
you.

Theo (16:22.534)
And my family would love it, but these are not images that you dare to show afterwards because it's been done thousands or millions of time. So of course, this is a very clear example, but there are more examples, think of trendy locations, trendy places, but also trendy type of images or subjects that have been done very well by many people. then, yeah, I maybe.

pass on to muscles or limpets that are not so popular. And I have the same feeling of excitement with them, but the benefit that you can present a fresh project or a fresh article, which is also commercially beneficial and maybe you can inspire other people as well. These are things that are not on top of my mind, but are also a little bit important as a professional photographer.

Mark Littlejohn (17:22.981)
I notice that you enter, I mean you've got some fantastic awards and some amazing competitions. Does part of that thinking also relate to the fact if you're going to enter competitions then you want to show something new, you want to show something that's not been done before? is it sometimes thinking about perhaps Wildlife Photographer of Year or the GDT Awards or whatever? So is that a consideration as well? And you're thinking in that respect?

Theo (17:49.166)
Well, it surely helps if you enter competitions to have fresh work and original work because the juries get a lot of great images. it's, as you know, because I think you were last year in the jury of the GD team. It's very hard to pick the best. often, think at least that's my experience as a judge, the element of surprise and to seeing something new or

a very well known subject in a new, depicted in a new way. That's what usually makes you appreciate it and even choose it. But it's not a primary goal for me when I try to find fresh perspectives. It's also, I, for example, make a new book, I'm thinking about a new book about flowers now.

or images taken with a fresh perspective, at least I hope, then I'm very happy if it's a project that hasn't been seen before, because maybe that's the creator or the artist part in my photography, that I like to show something new to the world and to surprise people with new perspectives on subjects that I love.

and that I can depict in a very beautiful and unusual way. And if I would... Sorry.

Tim Parkin (19:18.314)
think if you're producing a book, it is important to be commercially strong. And some of that comes from novelty and keep getting people's interest.

Theo (19:33.1)
Yeah, I think the book market has become more competitive in recent years. Many photographers have a dream of making their own book and it means there's more choice. So I guess it is important. Although it can also be risky if you do something new like in art, if it's different than people are used to it and then it doesn't necessarily appeal to people.

Sometimes it takes time. So this is always a balance that you have to consider. But usually if I'm enthusiastic myself about a project, I just do it and then hope that people will follow me later.

Tim Parkin (20:15.562)
Yeah.

St. Mark, as you were a judge in previous years in a competition, did you find yourself seeing the similar styles of image quite often? And do you think that novel stuff stands out when you're seeing so many images?

Mark Littlejohn (20:39.181)
It does when you see something that makes your eyebrows raise because it makes you stop. Because undoubtedly there are a number of people in photography who influence a huge number of other people. And so you do get almost lookalikes. You get similar things coming through because I think it's the nature of people trying to do well in the competition. They don't necessarily think about what's best for them. They think about

the judging process, you think about who's on the judging panel, well maybe not so much that. But they look at what's won well in previous years. So it's nice for, as a judge, to see something that is original and that people have done. And you can see original thought has gone into an image. So, I mean, that's why I have to say I've been looking through Theo's images this morning, again, just to, because I was suddenly.

Tim Parkin (21:17.408)
Mm.

Mark Littlejohn (21:38.017)
asked to sit in the panel. So it's lovely when I look through Teo's images because I can pause and just look at each one refresh because they're different from the norm, if you like, from the number of images you see elsewhere. So that's the lovely, mean, last year when I was on the Bruno, I can never say his surname right. It was a monk seal just under the surface of the water and it was a very clink like image because the reflections were just broken up.

lovely soft colors coming through. And it wasn't like all the other underwater images that are sharp and everything else. This was just really nice looking from above, soft, painterly, atmospheric. And that stopped me thinking. And that was my particular favorite last year in the park.

Theo (22:24.888)
Great, yeah, I the image.

Tim Parkin (22:29.694)
In terms of Richard Rawlings asks, asks what, it's quite a long question, but basically it's asking what is it, what is it do you think that gives a landscape photograph? He says punctum or focal point. What is it that makes a photograph poignant or stand out? Is there anything that you, that you've recognized as being a factor that, that does make people stop and think.

Mark Littlejohn (22:29.937)
sure.

Mark Littlejohn (22:35.729)
We will make some adjustments.

Tim Parkin (22:59.36)
See you. Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (22:59.877)
release.

Theo (23:01.454)
I think there are two main things. Of course, the subject needs to be nice, part of the landscape or part of nature in our case. For me, usually the difference between a good image and a great image is in the composition. If the composition is striking, well balanced, attractive.

without any disturbing elements, then yeah, I often like it better than other images. It can also be an unusual composition that breaks the so-called rules. And of course the light can also make or break an image. Light is not particularly important for my photography, I think, compared to other like Mark.

and some others. But I know when you have a usually a very beautiful backlit tree or whatever it may be, it can really make the image stand out from other images. So gorgeous light, I guess, is also an important factor. And of course, if you can combine the two, gorgeous light with a very striking composition.

Tim Parkin (24:28.126)
I think that's part of the thing that people often misunderstand how light can change compositions. The fact that, know, small changes in light can redistribute attention around a picture quite dramatically. And I've seen that with a lot of your photographs, Mark, where you've been out in woodland or smaller scenes where patches of light can really just move your eye around a picture.

Theo (24:28.664)
the image shift.

Theo (24:34.029)
Yes.

Theo (24:37.933)
with me.

Mark Littlejohn (24:56.289)
I mean, the fact that light can change something from being mundane to magnificent, just very simply. You could have an image that just would not work without the light, but some images wouldn't work if there was light. It's an intriguing question about what is it that makes it stand out, and each image is different. Some images you look at and it's immediately the balance of her...

of arrangements and you know it's been taken from the perfect perspective. Some images it's the color or maybe the balance of colors that make it stand out. Others could be the drama. Images that perhaps don't stand out for me quite so much are images where they just show me everything all the time and I look at it and my brain has nothing to do. It doesn't get my imagination involved. It's nice to have an image and by whichever means it makes you stop and it makes you look.

and it makes you just think a little bit. But quantifying what that little thing is that makes you stop and think is an entirely different subject because we all take different pictures. So it's probably an individuality. I think very often it's perhaps that connection and being able to show that connection perhaps and a little bit of ourself comes through to the image. think someone I said the other day was

When we're taking photographs, we only have to please one person. But if we're doing that, if we're pleasing ourselves, then we're putting more of ourselves into the picture. So sometimes I do think it's because there's more of the individual in the image. It's their connection with the image it's coming through. But it's not an easy question to answer. And I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. It's certainly not one you can apply a mathematical algorithm to and say,

X plus Y equals Z and Z is Y, but look at it. It's not like that. There's just so many different factors involved.

Theo (26:59.278)
I agree. And I agree that personality, individuality is an important factor. And so Adams was mentioned just that I am not so particularly fond of his images. But he has some very interesting quotes about photography. And this is one I have it here. You don't make a photograph just with a camera. You bring to the act of photography all the pictures you've seen, the books you've read, the music you've heard, and the people you've loved.

I think that is a brilliant summary of what photography and maybe any art form could be. And maybe it's also the back of the head thing that we talked earlier about. Everything take in that influences you, that touches you. Somehow you bring it back, or at least that's how it could be, into your photographs.

Theo (27:58.22)
Also the thing with creativity and inspiration. think a photographer can better get his inspiration from maybe paintings or music or poems rather than other landscape photographs. Because if you're being inspired by other landscape photographs, if I see, I saw a very good, very nice presentation of Mark at the GDT Festival.

I wasn't surely inspired by it, but if I would go to the same area and start to take pictures there, there would be a big risk, even when not fully remembering all the images, that I would end up with similar work. well, the risk is not so great if you listen to music. We shared our love for The National this weekend.

Tim Parkin (28:47.89)
Yeah.

Theo (28:53.452)
How can you translate the music of the national into a nature image? It's a big jump, but I'm sure something is there that influence your way of seeing and thinking.

Mark Littlejohn (29:05.841)
Do you, moving on from there then, when you go out, do you have a choice in music that you play in the car or when you're traveling or if you've got ear pods in or whatever else? Do you have a particular choice in music that you would listen to if you just want to get into that frame of mind, get your mind away from everything else?

Theo (29:27.466)
Well, surely music is important for me and I especially listen to it in the car, guess because otherwise I would be bored and you have all the time in the world for it. So it's very nice way of getting into it. And the choice of music is not fixed. It's also chosen pretty randomly.

At least there's no clear pattern in it for me. I just pick whatever I feel like and it always inspires me. But it's hard to translate it or to explain how it inspires your photography because you can't, there is no direct link.

Mark Littlejohn (30:11.631)
I think there's connections within the brain, you like, with certain music. So if I'm traveling early in the morning, it's still dark. I'm not going fast because there's deer in the road all over the place up here. But I find singer songwriters. So it'd be like Leonard Cohen. It might be Natalie Merchant. could be. It's that sort of like quiet. I mean, if I'm going out to take pictures early in the morning, I don't listen to the Ramones. I don't listen to any it.

I wouldn't say slower paced, more miserable, which is what my music would be getting accused of by my wife. I do like charismatic.

Theo (30:51.778)
Yeah

Mark Littlejohn (30:56.697)
more thoughtful music and I mean the likes of Ron Sexsmith that sort of thing that's what I listen to when I'm heading out.

Theo (31:04.75)
Yeah, for me it's very much the same, think. The heavy stuff, not early in the morning and not before a photo trip, but more contemplative music, singer-songwriters indeed. Nick Cave could be one of my choices, but there are many others.

Mark Littlejohn (31:12.195)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (31:23.035)
Going to see him in Dublin in two weeks.

Theo (31:26.882)
Yeah, I'm jealous. Did you see the presentation of Eric Malm on Saturday at the DBT Festival? He was also talking about the relationship between music and images. As a former musician himself, the relationship is maybe a bit more clear and more direct in his work.

Tim Parkin (31:27.584)
Very nice. Theo, you've...

Mark Littlejohn (31:28.465)
you

Mark Littlejohn (31:42.609)
Mmm.

Theo (31:53.71)
I do have his book here, it's all ICM images, as most of you probably know. And there are really some images where you see the musical influence that have a same sort of rhythm, not all of them. But yeah, I found it interesting because it was the first time that I thought that I saw a direct relationship between someone's musical preferences and the images he took.

Mark Littlejohn (32:22.681)
It was as well with him being the conductor, he was just the movements, the music, pictures in the background. was excellent. I really enjoyed that. Really enjoyed it.

Theo (32:31.224)
Yep.

Tim Parkin (32:33.396)
In terms of the landscape and the interest in the landscape, you've got a bit of a background in researching things like your research, the gullies and canyons or the mussels that you've been working on projects or flooding. Do you think learning more about aspects of the landscape changes the way you see it and the way you react to it?

And how does it change it maybe?

Theo (32:59.938)
Yes, I surely do. Although I must say that sometimes the research with my images is after I took it, just to learn what I photographed, because I don't have a biological background. I was just a simple lawyer with not specific knowledge of nature, also not from my youth. And everything...

Most of the things I know about nature I learned through photography. As a person who usually starts an image or a project with visual attraction to a subject, I often have to do my research afterwards and say, what the heck is this? It looks beautiful, but what is it? When I'm working on a book, especially in the second phase of it, I try to read

more into my subject and sometimes this brings me to new ideas. For instance, I'm working on a book about European canyons and reading about geology in Europe because the book is focused on Naya canyons all over Europe. It helps me to choose locations. Let's see, here you have this and that.

Geology that could be interesting could be visually interesting could make up a nice addition for the book So it surely helps, but it also depends a little bit on the subject

Tim Parkin (34:36.2)
Is this when you're trying to fill in gaps in a book or complete and round out the ideas that you've developed?

Theo (34:40.13)
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe also to give it a bit of a story as well. I think this is also a subject we could talk about. Is mere beauty in an image or even in a book enough? Or should there be a message or a story? It's a very nowadays topic, especially in nature photography.

Tim Parkin (35:06.196)
Yeah, Mark, you were asking a question about that, weren't you, Mark?

Mark Littlejohn (35:11.441)
Well, it was funny. was someone that's come up twice recently. Obviously I was working with Joe Cornish two weeks ago and then I was in Lunen and we were sitting talking with Senator Bartoka and on each occasion the subject of there has to be a place for beautiful images. Pretty pictures if you might. Because it was interesting when I talked at Lunen and I was the last person up. So of the previous maybe

eight speakers, it was maybe four or five connected into conservation from all corners of the world. So I was going to stand there and show pretty little pictures from my little corner of the world. And in a way you feel almost selfish. You feel almost like, you know, I'm not worthy. I'm not a good enough human being. I'm just taking little snapshots. But there has to, you know, the discussion was by Joe and by Sandra was there has to be a place for beautiful images.

whether or not that just puts a smile on people's faces. And as I said to you this morning, sometimes before they save the world, we've got to save ourselves. We've got to put ourselves in an equilibrium. We've got to put a smile on our own faces. We've got to live our own lives. Sometimes it's nice just to perhaps put your pictures online and let other people forget the nature of their own lives or their own worries for a moment while they look at an image. And I think as you said, sometimes

It's more prevalent that people might look at a beautiful image and think, well, that's worth saving. As opposed to being shown a distressing image and like moving on quickly. There has to be a balance between the two. Really.

Tim Parkin (36:54.826)
think there's been a quite a bit of research, well not a lot of research, but there's some neuroscience and conservation research topics around what changes people's mind about conservation, what do people react to. And most of them have come back and said it's the beautiful images that engage people the most, it's about what you might lose. And quite often too many doom and gloom messages turn people off.

Theo (37:21.73)
Yeah, that's true. I think it even works like that for me. There are very good conservation photographers like Blita Jadzinski who make horrible work. I mean, it's showing the reality and it's very important, but sometimes it's also for me too much to look at. then I'd be very happy to look at a couple of beautiful images.

They give you maybe also sometimes a bit more hope. On the other hand, I think it's important to acknowledge that the nature almost in maybe every country is under pressure. that's, yeah, that we have to do something as humans. But I think you can also put this message into beautiful images because by showing how beautiful it is.

how fragile, how special, how brilliant nature is often. You can also open up people's eyes, especially when there are images from your own country, for instance. think they're even better to awaken people. What was this taken in this forest where I live close by? Yes, it was.

Tim Parkin (38:41.194)
think one of the most successful conservation images was Peter Dombrowski's image of one of the gorges that was going to be flooded in Tasmania and that managed to, that single photograph managed to motivate a lot of politicians to get a dam stopped.

Theo (39:00.29)
Yeah, that's cool.

Mark Littlejohn (39:01.361)
Mm.

Tim Parkin (39:05.264)
And in terms of books, we've had a couple of questions around books and sequencing. And Louie Afonso asked a question for Theo about

Who should control the book sequencing in terms of yourself or third parties? How useful are editors and how much of a role should they take? How do you feel about that, Theo?

Theo (39:30.444)
Yeah. Well, I published four photo books up till now. They were all self-published, but also they were all edited by someone else. The first two I did with René Alblas, which is a Dutch editor. And the last two ones I did with Sandra Bartoghain, mentioned before. It was a landscape talk for herself. And I think

It's really important and I would recommend it to every photographer who thinks about self-publishing to involve another person to help you with this because to make the parallel with music again, just like a band can benefit greatly from a good producer, think of the Beatles for instance, I think a photographer can benefit greatly from a good...

book designer and someone who is very critical at the image selection and the sequencing. And there people who know Sandra, know she can be very direct and very critical, which can be hard sometimes, but I like working with her a lot because, well, it's out of the way immediately and you know,

Tim Parkin (40:44.116)
You're to know what she's thinking.

Theo (40:58.562)
when she says, this is good, or I like this, she's also very honest. And yeah, had the last two books, a really nice process of working with her, doing mutual suggestions, discussing them, sometimes looking at other images. She obviously did a lot of pairing and suggestions. And I think my books got much better by that.

Tim Parkin (41:27.828)
Did she get involved in the ideas stage of the book as well? Or was it once you've completed a project and have a lot of work ready to do something with?

Theo (41:38.318)
Usually I contacted her when I was ready for 90 % and she complained about that both times. Obviously it would have been better to involve her in previously. I involved her already in my Canyon project now it's now at 70 % or so. She was happy with the extra 20%. And yes, it can help too because if you work alone and

Tim Parkin (41:46.9)
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Parkin (41:57.822)
Okay, yeah.

Theo (42:08.152)
If you do everything yourself, can be sometimes hard to keep the overview and to keep the clear line and to see if the theme is worked out properly and if it's clear to other people if you show your work. And it really helps to just discuss the theme and your way of working. And of course, especially if you show some images as well.

Tim Parkin (42:33.714)
It is difficult to judge your own images and assess them. It's difficult to judge your own images and assess which work and don't work in a certain context.

Theo (42:37.016)
Sorry.

Theo (42:40.716)
Yeah, think photographers are notoriously bad, usually in that. And I think the big trap for self-publishing photographers is to do everything themselves and keeping all darlings in and bringing out books that are maybe 150 pages while they should be 100 maximum. Yeah, it's a pity and it could be much better. So I really believe in the role of

Tim Parkin (42:55.028)
Yeah.

Theo (43:10.54)
another person who is direct and critical and not just, that looks nice, that looks nice, otherwise it won't help you much.

Mark Littlejohn (43:20.741)
think Sandra is the absolutely perfect person for that because she's got wonderful eye, she's completely honest. I love her. She's great. Absolutely superb.

Theo (43:24.428)
Yep.

Tim Parkin (43:29.984)
How did you go about with your seaweed book? Because that came together fairly quickly, didn't it? So did you have time to work with anybody?

Mark Littlejohn (43:38.115)
Yeah, I mean that was Greg at Kozu asked me if I would do it because I've been writing bits and pieces for a different project, which isn't particularly one thing. It's just about.

My approach, if you like.

which as Theo says, I think I look at some books that I love, but after 80 or 90 pages, you're just like, same again, same again. So the key is getting it to the right length. There's a variety of different things with the Calp. It wasn't necessarily something that I was doing with a view to doing a book. I did think it might be nice to put everything together, but books.

and projects aren't something that I've ever done. I'm very much in the moment taking quick pictures, although I do like writing. But how much writing do you put in a photography book? I mean, because the idea for my particular, the book that I'm doing for myself, there's quite a bit of writing, mostly sensible writing.

Theo (44:49.166)
You

Mark Littlejohn (44:50.799)
It isn't always.

Tim Parkin (44:52.19)
Most photographers don't want to waste a possible picture page on text. I think that's one of the issues with books I've seen.

Theo (44:56.544)
Thank

Mark Littlejohn (44:57.905)
But that's the whole point. Each picture has a different meaning. Each picture has a different thought process. Each picture makes you think of something else. As Teo was saying earlier, it's our learned thoughts, our processes that have led us to life. His previous career, I would say previous life as a solicitor, will have an impact on some of the things that he does and some of the ways he takes pictures. So there's little facets of what we've done before, what we've experienced before that might have nothing to do with photography.

but they can translate into how we do something a certain way. And then for me, it's all little phrases I have to say that remind me. I love Len Metcalfe's for instance, the old one, Border Patrol, when he's taking an image. When we're talking with Joe, I always think we're the same in that we see with the heart and shoot with the head. We don't need to show everybody everything all the time. There's a lot of little things that I repeat to myself.

So the idea of a book, my own thing, would be going over little bits and pieces like that, but it's...

Tim Parkin (46:02.09)
think having mentioned music earlier is good metaphor or parallels with bookmaking. I always think of a book as like a concerto and it should have rhythmic changes and webbing and flowing, et cetera, and tension and resolution throughout it.

Theo (46:15.971)
this.

Mark Littlejohn (46:20.145)
All that's in my head now is these birthday cards that you open up and start singing Happy Birthday to. So you open it and it comes on. Yeah, but you stay on some pages longer than others.

Tim Parkin (46:24.724)
Now there's an idea. Get the national going halfway through.

Tim Parkin (46:35.476)
Do you get the same thing with with book sequencing for yourself there, in terms of rhythm and changes of tempo, etc.

Theo (46:42.646)
Yeah, I think so. I think rhythm is very important or flow or whatever you call it that you're going through the pages you keep want to go on and will be wondering and be amazed and be delighted every time you see and make you curious about what's next. And if a book doesn't have a good rhythm, then you think, I've seen this before and

why is this one in? And then you lose interest and put it away. So it's just like music. If the silent part is too long, then you probably fall asleep. So that's the same in book.

Mark Littlejohn (47:25.713)
It's an interesting point, just you're almost thinking about you want an interest to like hold interest and keep you there, but you also want it to entice you to turn the next page. So it's like it's doing two things, isn't it? Really?

Theo (47:35.426)
Yes, it's very delicate, I think. the good and the bad thing is that you have a million options for selection and flow. That makes it very interesting and difficult.

Mark Littlejohn (47:38.673)
Hmm.

Tim Parkin (47:50.88)
Alex Nail asked about sequencing in terms of pairs of pictures and how much you think about that. He says he doesn't know anybody who does it better in terms of you and Sandra. How important do you think those pairs of pictures are in relation to the overall just sequence of pictures across pages?

Theo (48:14.69)
Well, I think one of the great things of books is that you have this option to show two images together online. This is not common. I mean, you could do it too, but nobody does it for some reason. I think in a book it works particularly well. And this gives you an option, an extra option to put more of your personality into it and to...

to pair interesting color combinations, it can also be other associations or things that link the images together, or it could also be very opposite things that work together because they are so opposite. So I think you need a broad approach and maybe also some guts sometimes because...

Bookmakers also have the tendency, I think, to choose safely and to make it look pleasing and maybe also a bit predictable every now and then. And I think one of the ways to keep the attention of the viewer is surprising pairings that, of course, they need to work well and not only be surprising, but also look beautiful. Yeah, it's just like seeking for images in a jury.

that stand out and stop you in your tracks. A nice unusual pairing can stop you in your tracks and say, wow, that's a good find. And it's more not a find in the fields to take the image, but to combine images that are already there. And it's a very nice process. think it's very rewarding if you succeed.

Tim Parkin (50:00.37)
Yeah, each pairing is like a separate project in a way of its own that brings its own connotations.

Theo (50:04.877)
Yeah, it is. It brings absolutely a lot of joy when you succeed. And the good thing of hiring Sandra is that she pairs them for you also. I mean, it's a joint process, but she does a lot of proposals and there are absolutely lots of jewels there. to see your work through the eyes of another that combines them is very rewarding.

Great.

Mark Littlejohn (50:37.361)
going to do like

Theo (50:37.602)
and

Mark Littlejohn (50:40.625)
When I was looking at the fine art print section in your website, the colors all match very well though. So there's a certain, because I'm a wee bit of a slave to color, but it struck me how even different colors, different images, but they matched, if that makes sense, there's a certain tonality. I think I said to Joe Cornish this morning, there was a faded opulence, was the phrase that came to mind somehow because.

the quality of saturation, the use of the tones. Is that something you work at, color matching in a scene when you process?

Theo (51:16.878)
Not really, I'm a pretty sloppy image processor, I always think. I like to be ready in five minutes with an image. But yeah, I do look at color. think, especially color separation is an important thing in image processing. And sometimes I think I do the opposite as other photographers. For instance, with autumn images,

Everybody puts up the white balance to more warm to make it really orange and really yellow. And I put it slightly more to blue so that the yellow pops out better and things like that. I try to give, to let every color in the image shine in a way and give all the colors the attention. But it's a very quick process usually. Most of my images are

process in exactly the same way. And then I copy paste them to others. So I'm bit lazy, I guess, in that. But they work for me.

Mark Littlejohn (52:23.502)
Exactly the same.

Tim Parkin (52:26.772)
That provides a consistency of tone, doesn't it?

Mark Littlejohn (52:27.077)
Yeah.

Theo (52:29.452)
Yeah, probably.

Mark Littlejohn (52:30.905)
Well, it was something I looked at was the blues, which would obviously work because it's a cooler temperature that like blues and blacks, but a pleasing combination. And yeah, I do the same. It's like processing five, 10 minutes. And I would call it efficient, not lazy, copying and pasting. And you get a similar mood that you things on. That's why you're a solicitor, efficiency is the key. How do you reconcile, obviously a solicitor,

Theo (52:50.254)
Thanks.

Theo (52:56.687)
this.

Mark Littlejohn (53:01.189)
The law tends to be black and white. There isn't a case of, well, that's nearly legal or that's unlawful.

Theo (53:09.07)
I think lawyers would argue that. And former lawyers as well.

Tim Parkin (53:10.612)
Yeah.

Mark Littlejohn (53:12.015)
Yeah, probably.

Tim Parkin (53:16.468)
We can bend that one a bit. We can bend that one slightly as a lawyer.

Theo (53:20.774)
Yeah, but I think efficient is a good word. for me, it's also important to keep a certain amount of authenticity. If an image looks, if I work on an image for an hour, I can see it. This image looks like I worked on it for an hour. then, yeah, it loses the freshness and the crispness that I look for in my images. I usually

Tim Parkin (53:41.044)
Yeah.

Theo (53:51.422)
overexpose in the fields and this makes it fairly easy to get the colors out and make it a bit darker and then it's usually ready for me. Of course, sometimes you have a problem image where you can pay a little bit more attention to it or if you have to focus stack or so. But usually it's really five minutes.

Tim Parkin (54:14.73)
question from Hank Goosens, probably the last question, we've got about five minutes left, but it's about how long is your research time for a book? If you're thinking about a new book and how long does it take to get to certain stages before you start producing work perhaps?

Theo (54:34.798)
There is not a clear process that could be applied to all the books I made. Usually it starts with a couple of images that I like or one area I visited and then I think, is there already a book on? And then I start.

exploring other places that I could go to. instance, this, the shape by the sea book about the Atlantic coast of Europe. It started because I really enjoyed the winter storms on the islands. And I had been in Northern Spain where I enjoyed the coast a lot. then I thought, that's two great locations. There must probably be more. And so I stopped working on it and then

When I got more images and visited more places, then the ideas about the book started to take shape. I first called it the Wild Coast or the Wild Atlantic Coast or something like that, and then it transformed to Shape by the Sea, which was a bit more interesting and a bit more focused. focused on what does the sea to the landscape, how...

Does it shape the landscape either in centuries of erosion or just very fast, some sand patterns that are washed away by the next wave? And then when I had found that theme, then the rest of the project is easier to fulfill and to conclude because you can look a bit more focused on what you're missing.

Tim Parkin (55:57.418)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (56:19.316)
think that's good because it's a strong idea that still gives you lots of flexibility with how to work within it.

Theo (56:24.62)
Yeah, I think in the start of each project, I need this flexibility because I don't want to be blocked in my creativity and I want to have open mind to the subject. And probably I also needed this time to get my thoughts clear. Usually it's a bit, I have idea of which direction to go, but it's not very clear. And I need to start photographing to get it perfectly clear in my head.

After I see some images of some trips, usually it gets more defined.

Tim Parkin (57:01.322)
So it's like a distillation of ideas. get some big ideas at the start and then focus down as you discover things about your idea.

Theo (57:06.006)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice process and maybe others, it wouldn't work for others. know for instance, that Sandra, not her last book, but her previous book, she totally designed it in advance. Each chapter already known with a sort of color temperature and mood boards and areas to visit. And it looked very organized to me when I heard it, but it wouldn't work for me.

I couldn't figure it out in advance. I first need to take pictures and then see what I can do with them.

Tim Parkin (57:43.892)
Are you working on a book project at the moment, Mark? I know you mentioned a couple of things previously.

Mark Littlejohn (57:49.297)
Yeah, well, just gradually. Basically, I've taken the pictures, it's just doing the writing. When I look through my phone, because all my notes are in the phone, because I can write them on the Mac or save them to the phone, which is great. But there's something like 600,000 words.

Tim Parkin (57:58.912)
You should be good at that.

Mark Littlejohn (58:17.765)
that I've written just on Facebook stroke Instagram spiels. So an awful lot of them really are already written. It's a case of going back through and perhaps taking a few and then just rewriting them. But the sensible ones, not the ones about taking a cheese grater on a pub crawl, for example, but ones that perhaps have more to do with photography. Maybe the

Tim Parkin (58:22.517)
Yeah.

Tim Parkin (58:42.976)
Have you got any other ideas for books in the background?

Mark Littlejohn (58:45.997)
Not really because the photography has to come to me first, it must be something else that kicks in. I'm not a thoughtful photographer. I'm a sort of seat of the pants, restless, flibbertige of it. I see someone liking to take a picture of it. It really is, there's no great ideas about the conservation or whatever else at the moment.

Theo (59:13.91)
Have you thought of doing a photo diary as book? Not literally, maybe every day, but what I enjoy about your Instagram page is the stories that you write with each image, which can be related or not so related at first sight, but they're always interesting and they reveal a lot about your...

your way of working, your way of thinking, your way of seeing the world. So it could be a very nice combination because you're a good writer and a good photographer.

Mark Littlejohn (59:50.787)
I did have Harper Collins email about doing something like that and I probably need to reply to them.

Theo (01:00:00.396)
You

It's always good, sometimes.

Mark Littlejohn (01:00:03.409)
They did a book with one of my neighbors, Annie Worsley, a called Windswept about their time in the croft. I suppose that's a similar sort of thing. I mean, she's wonderful use of language, but Annie was professor of geology at Manchester. So, yeah, I did actually think Westeros Diaries. Westeros Diaries, and it would be pictures basically from within

Tim Parkin (01:00:25.524)
Yeah, that'd be cool.

Mark Littlejohn (01:00:33.649)
probably 10 miles of here. So pictures within 10 miles from home, and the spales are probably already written. But yeah, but it would be spales that I would think would put a smile on your face. It might be a case of the way the circumstances were, and there might be something slightly humorous, but would lead it back around to the way of thinking. A bit like the Richard Gere thing with the dance, you don't care if anybody's watching, it's, and equating that into photographic terms.

Tim Parkin (01:00:41.738)
by that.

Mark Littlejohn (01:01:02.865)
So the fact that you both mentioned it might mean that's a slightly better idea than the other thing that I've got in my head.

Tim Parkin (01:01:09.632)
I've got a last question for Theo is what books have you got coming up? You mentioned a couple.

Theo (01:01:16.014)
Well, the Kenyon book was a little bit delayed, but I hope to have it ready in 2026. And there will probably a book about wild flowers next spring. A little book with flowers taken with a new angle, new perspective, all in my 90 % in the Netherlands, just very close to home. So a non-flying project, which is also nice.

Tim Parkin (01:01:28.221)
interesting.

Mark Littlejohn (01:01:29.371)
next time.

Tim Parkin (01:01:37.662)
Yeah, that'd be nice to see.

Yes.

Theo (01:01:45.824)
I'm contacting Sandra about it. More news hopefully soon.

Tim Parkin (01:01:51.39)
Yeah, that's great. And that's our hour up. So thank you very much, Theo and Mark for an interesting conversation. I'll try and include a couple of pictures and links to the books in the podcast. But yeah, good luck with the book and I forward to seeing yours as well, Soon.

Theo (01:02:01.388)
Bye.

Theo (01:02:13.198)
this.

Mark Littlejohn (01:02:13.719)
Yeah, Final draft, going through an email this morning, so I'll go through it.

Tim Parkin (01:02:18.026)
Fabulous. All right. Goodbye.

Mark Littlejohn (01:02:20.817)
Cheers.

Theo (01:02:20.867)
Bye bye.